Spirit Shaman Change

[metaquad4]

In light of the recent proposal to flip Favored Soul casting to be WIS for spells and CHA for DCs, I would like to propose that Spirit Shamans get CHA for spells and WIS for DCs. This would give them some more power, and would synergies with the druid spellbook far better (which has Owl's Insight for the fairly DC-based spellbook and no CHA boosts).

Additionally, if they aren't going to get an alternative animal companion, I propose that Telthor gets full animal progression on Spirit Shaman levels, instead of HD-3.

[chad878262]

I'd like to hear from Lisa and other players that have a SS main or at least one they play or have played extensively in the past if this would be a good change. For purposes of the discussion assume you would get a free RCR token from a DM were this implemented, would it still be desirable?

I ask because a lot of the concern around a change such as this for FS is how it impacts the RP. For those players of FS characters many RP'd a charismatic, but low wisdom and flipping the stats would cause that RP to require retcon/it would no longer make sense. I assume the same issue would exist here for those players who've spent time cultivating a certain type of RP.

I didn't vote, as I'm not sure if this would be a good idea or not. Yes it improves mechanical power of the class for a DC focused SS, but what does it do for the RP, positive or negative?

[metaquad4]

Both situations do require your character be both wise and charismatic. And I find there is a bit of a diminishing returns value on how high stats are RPed. 18 INT is the top-of-the-line for IRL standards, for example. Imagination can only stretch so far (as can IRL ability). I don't think it will be too much of a change, to be honest. Both stats will still be pretty high (usually 17 of 1 (the one that determine spells) and around 26-30 of the other (the one that determines DCs).

I suppose ones it might impact are those who didn't go for DCs at all. Though, this is highly likely to be a massive minority, if practically existent at all. Due to the fact that the druid spell book doesn't exactly lend itself to anything but DC casting or Shapeshifting (which goes hand in hand with the former). There are very few save-less spells and the ones that exist can't reliably form a character's total offence. Hence, I don't believe this archtype is played by anything other than perhaps a minor alt. Someone who has a DC-less Spirit Shaman as a main character they play, feel free to correct me

[chad878262]

I would beg to differ as Spirit Shaman can make a decent Sacred Fist. I also think there are Spirit Shaman gish types that focus on high DC (tortoise shell FTW). While I absolutely understand where you are coming from I would not want to cause an issue for players who are currently focused on the RP of a build based on the existing mechanics.

Currently a Sacred Fist with Spirit Shaman levels can dump CHA all together and obtain INSANE A.C. with Owls Insight and Tortoise Shell. So again, it would be dependent for me on whether or not there are any players that have characters based on the existing mechanics that would be less viable or no longer viable at all if they were suddenly required to have 19 CHA for their spells instead of 19 WIS...

[LISA100595]

About Elvina, whom I've been playing since the Spirit Shaman class came out and all these years her build is still about the same...

I prefer to play my main, a Spirit Shaman who is the Commander of a Holy Order... two ways mechanically and RPly... First High DC's with High Charisma is a must, Secondary is Party Support and lots of spells, so I have High Wisdom for that as well. Med-High Intelligence gives lots of skill points for the RP aspects as well as some benefits with the build - Spot Listen Diplomacy Concentration Spellcraft etc.. Knowing all this, I of course have lower to average strength , dex and con of which can be helped with spells and items.

Alternatively, Either one Wis or Char. I could have maxed if I wanted to and would excel greatly at either one but that wouldn't match the RP of the character. (yes I know you power builders are cringing right now )

So in conclusion, it's a toss up for me. Personally I would like to see it all based on one... Charisma like Sorcerers and be done with it. Cause when you think about it, that's exactly what a Spirit Shaman is like in comparison to their counterpart the druid.

Currently that fancy +4 wisdom item I spent all my gold to have someone buy for me is worthless due to some cheaters on the server (or hopefully No longer on the server) that abused the stacking bug. (No casting Owl's Insight doesnt work either to stop the loss of spells.) I tested it over and over.

I hope this gets fixed Very Soon so that those of us who use items to increase number of spells and spell slot items can benefit like everyone else from the use of said fancy items.

Thanks

*edited*

[metaquad4]

That is a fair point. Though, most of those Sacred Fists likely wouldn't be able to get a whole lot of AB. One way to circumvent that is to possible do a feat that swaps the casting, if that is possible to code. Such as a background feat. Or even one of those lovely alternate class kits. That is an interesting way to do it, and let everyone enjoy the pie.

Also, note (as sort of a devil's advocate argument) that these questions are not being considered for Favored Soul, in their re-balance, at least from the conversations I have seen about it (if it is indeed going through). There will be lots of characters who are suddenly nonviable or need to have their RP changed, with Favored Soul.

As a side note, it makes more RP sense too to have it the other way. You use CHA to barter for your spells (gain spells) then you use WIS to figure out how to best use them (DCs).

[vbaddict]

I suppose ones it might impact are those who didn't go for DCs at all. Though, this is highly likely to be a massive minority, if practically existent at all.

Sounds like people are interested in hearing about different kinds of Spirit Shamans so I thought I'd describe mine. Guess he is in the minority, a mild mannered uncharismatic svirfneblin with good wisdom. He's not aggressive, more of a shy defensive character. So as far as his spells go, he does not spend them on DC casting. He just has lots of spells for healing, restoration, buffing, etc.

[vbaddict]

I would beg to differ as Spirit Shaman can make a decent Sacred Fist. I also think there are Spirit Shaman gish types that focus on high DC (tortoise shell FTW). While I absolutely understand where you are coming from I would not want to cause an issue for players who are currently focused on the RP of a build based on the existing mechanics.

Currently a Sacred Fist with Spirit Shaman levels can dump CHA all together and obtain INSANE A.C. with Owls Insight and Tortoise Shell. So again, it would be dependent for me on whether or not there are any players that have characters based on the existing mechanics that would be less viable or no longer viable at all if they were suddenly required to have 19 CHA for their spells instead of 19 WIS...

My character is like chad's description here.

[Deathgrowl]

No to change of DC stat. Owl's Insight and Blood Magic feat at the same time? No way.

I can support full companion progression, though (which means basically the same as druid wolf, I think?). But no buff beyond that.

[vbaddict]

Currently that fancy +4 wisdom item I spent all my gold to have someone buy for me is worthless due to some cheaters on the server (or hopefully No longer on the server) that abused the stacking bug. (No casting Owl's Insight doesnt work either to stop the loss of spells.) I tested it over and over.

I too purchased the +4 Wisdom item. It was not worthless for me the last time I was on my Spirit Shaman so I hope I have not been inadvertently cheating! I have a even numbered wisdom. So even though I have Owl's Insight, the item is useful to me when I rest (I end up with more spells). I don't have a lot of experience with D&D, so if this is an exploit of some kind, I will stop doing it.

[chad878262]

where do people get all these +4 items????!?!?!!?!?! I thought they were 'rare'! I certainly never saw one!

OK, rant over, back on topic...

The fact that one player came in and said they play a character that this would cause to be no longer viable makes me lean to not making such a change... The additional balance concerns that DG posted seals the deal for me...

[Theodore01]

Such a change would totally scrap my weaker, but fun to play, staff monk/shaman build.

[Rhifox]

No to the attribute change. I play a DC-less spirit shaman (Cha 10) and it is absolutely not an issue in the class's capability at all. Shaman spell list is primarily evocation and direct damage abilities--IE, things you are basically never using in combat anyway because buffing and meleeing will always be more efficient. If you DO want to play a DC shaman, it is very easy to get a high DC despite the MAD issue due to Blood Magic, which is functionally like having your Cha 8 points higher than it is. 16 Wis and most everything else in Cha gets you DC's comparable or superior to a druid's, easily.

Changing shaman to be Wis only, or Wis for DCs and Cha for spells, would require removing Owl's Insight from their spell list (which would remove it from the druid's too, due to the fact they both use the same one). Or removing Blood Magic, which would suck as it's a great flavor ability and one that was a pretty major part of my character's RP at least. And changing to Cha for both spells and DCs, while perhaps more feasible mechanically, would severely hurt my character concept, as being high Cha is simply not an option for her.

I don't mind the animal companion change, it would certainly be an improvement. But it might be something better done with kits. In fact, both of these changes are can be handled with kits, like I've previously suggested here.

[gedweyignasia]

Currently that fancy +4 wisdom item I spent all my gold to have someone buy for me is worthless due to some cheaters on the server (or hopefully No longer on the server) that abused the stacking bug. (No casting Owl's Insight doesnt work either to stop the loss of spells.) I tested it over and over.

I too purchased the +4 Wisdom item. It was not worthless for me the last time I was on my Spirit Shaman so I hope I have not been inadvertently cheating! I have a even numbered wisdom. So even though I have Owl's Insight, the item is useful to me when I rest (I end up with more spells). I don't have a lot of experience with D&D, so if this is an exploit of some kind, I will stop doing it.

Don't worry; you're not using an exploit. The fact that you have to rest before you get more spells is because an exploit needed to be mitigated-- this is what LISA100595 is referring to.