Man at Arms suggestions

[PotionPeddler]

So I have an epic man at arms and have come to the conclusion that the class is in a bad place at the moment. He may have high ac, but having to pump STR CON and CHA has made it where he can get neither dr/- or regen. Let alone the fact he has only high will saves, when one of his abilities already grants him plenty of will saves, as a front line fighter.

I've invested enough CHA to get him to 20, which at level 30 would give his AoE taunt to draw foes in a whopping 35. While it was great at lower levels everything on the server has pumped up will saves to account for all the finger wagglers running around.

So I've thought of a few things that could changed, added, or fixed to make the class worth going a full 30 in to get the full dc for your abilities.

1) Give the class Fort and will - I know this differs from the Knight class it is based off of, but getting dropped due to the death spells that various bosses throw at you in the first 6 seconds of the fight kind of defeats the purpose of being a Tank. Some may say, "Just take feats to buff up the fort save, fighters have to do the same for will saves".... and fighters get a lot more feats to play with

2) Allow Challenge to increase the ab and dmg of shield bash - I feel the class and this feat line would work together rather well, but shield bash doesn't scale into epics. In general it would be nice if Shield bash would take in account more than just STR for ab and dmg

3) Create a Feat that requires 15ish (11 would be nice) M@A that grants you dr/- based on your shield ac - One of the biggest effects the Knight has in PnP is his effectiveness in halting foes with his AoO's. Foes can't take a 5 foot step back in his square or pass through it in a charge as it is considered difficult terrain. Having to pump CHA up to hope that 1 in 5 taunts works causes you to have to give up dr/- (though having to wait till epics to get any would be and is brutal I can assure you) I'm not suggesting giving it to the M@A as a free feat, rather making it require M@A and a Cha score of 15 or better. M@A 15 would make sure that it would not be something everyone dipped into, though 11 would make it more useful and still out of reach for a dip

4) Add something similar to the feat above but with SR - This is something I would suggest be an epic feat for the M@A, lets say M@A 21 shield spec (light, heavy, tower) and Imp combat expertise. The amount granted I would hope would be useful in epics, or scales off level. Something like 5 + M@A level + Cha, so that if you invest into CHA as the class should you'd gain more sr, but still keep it weaker than lets say drow/monk/spell resistance (spell)

5) This is just me throwing something out there I think would be neat. For every foe taunted gain Temp hp (level + cha) for 1 minute per (M@A lvl /5) or Every foe slain under the effect of challenge heals you for (M@A/2 +Cha). A part of the Knight class is to regain uses of the Challenge when certain criteria are filled, though if M@A had a limited number of uses a day the class would be worthless.

Feel free to chime in with a storm of Nay Saying, but that is just a few things that I've thought up in the 25 levels I've slowly chugged through.

[Thorsson]

A Fighter 30 who pumped 3 stats would struggle in ways as well, and he'd certainly have less AC. It seems like you have decided on a certain build and now you would like someone to fix the weaknesses without you having to go through an RCR. I think the team needs to fix all the bugs introduced in the big update before adding any further changes...

[Storm Munin]

Doesnt shield bash feat thrive off the two weapon line of feats to improve?

Toughness and maybe steadfast determination should help with saves if you want them.
A CON based lv30 MoA gold dwarf reach 800 hp and decent DR without gear or UMD buffs.

Blackguard, paladin or warlock dips (dark ones luck) for more save (through CHA), but that cost you a little AC.


MoA are hardly weak whatever you do with it as is.

[PotionPeddler]

Thorsson, that would be an assumption and an incorrect one. I did RcR to correct the weakness to the best of my abilities, these were just a few things I came up with while leveling him the first time. Also

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Rule #1 wrote:
Do not post personal attacks, sarcastic or denigrating shut downs, or straw man or slippery slope-style arguments in reaction to any of the suggestions here. If your post is felt to be in any way hostile or inflammatory, it will be removed. Everyone is welcome to share their ideas here, and should not be made to feel that they are not.

I thought about going the just CON route, but that would make the dc for the taunts and abilities even lower. The purpose of the class is to make a tank that can actually hold aggro instead of the monsters attacking the people (person) that is dealing the most dmg. I've tried going a Dwarven defender and bottle necking, but a lot of areas don't lend them selves to that tactic. As to shield bash, you can take agile shield fighter to remove the attack debuff for heavy and light shield. Improved two weapon fighting removes the debuff for using a tower shield

[Rasael]

An idea that comes to mind is to offer a limited synergy on its DC's with the constitution ability modifier.

But I'm not sure if this is a build issue or an issue with the class itself.

[Kauaiian]

A while back someone posted a great guide to the man at arms class with some great suggestions for improving. It may not have made the migration to the new forum though, I did a search and couldnt find it. If anyone has it its a great resource for players.

[Eclypticon]

I had thought we were going to consider making some changes. Did we ever come to an agreement because I cannot find a thread?

[PotionPeddler]

The way I found to make it more viable is a four dip into warlock. Still get +5 challenge and +3 shield block, took dark one's own luck for the saves, hideous blow (50% asf but when it hits the dmg helps a lot), and see the unseen so that those caster mobs that like to use invise and buff up are no longer a major threat. The skills I took were UMD ( 4 points, +4 from warlock, +5 from CHA), spell craft (after getting warlock it lets you put a full 30 in it for +6 saves vs spells), taunt and tumble for tank stuff.

Feats I found useful are shield bash, not for the dmg but for the control of shield charge and slam. Slam hits a lot more if you can get one of the two debuffs off and taking improved knock down increases the trip check. I thought about taking powerful charger but it didn't fit the character (thought it grants another +4, and you could get dire charge to make full attacks with all the charge goodies).

So far leveling has been a lot easier, but I had to give up some of the M@A ability DCs, but I had another idea while fighting some Orog. It seems people disliked the M@A only feats, so what if there was a feat added called Great Heavy armor Spec? It would require Heavy armor spec, heavy armor opt, and great heavy armor opt. Could increase the dr/- back to the original 5 instead of the 3 for both heavy and medium. I'd suggest putting a bab requirement on it though to avoid people getting 5/- dr early, like 11 or 15 bab. Though you can get the fey feat line for a lot of dr early already if you went that way.