Cavestalker PrC talk

[Steve]

IF cavestalker is reworked in order to be more ranger and druid friendly, then that would be a good class to multiclass with.

I caught this, and since I have a Cavestalker Druid Character, I was naturally curious as to what and if might happen? Or even if there is a running QC discussion, and if so, it would be great to hear that and then we can all await the answer. Cheers.

[mrm3ntalist]

There is a discussion going on and some suggestions are already made.

[Steve]

There is a discussion going on and some suggestions are already made.

Cool. Thanks M3nt!

[metaquad4]

Spell progression for druids and rangers would be a good move. 7/10, 1 spell level lost at each hide of stone level (2, 6, and 10).

For druids, wildshape progression would also be good (as it does give you a wildshape, it should progress this).

For both rangers and druids, it could give animal companion progression, and it could give a choice of a vermin animal companion at level 1.

For rangers, it could give a special feat to allow "Bane of All Enemies" to be taken if the ranger takes 10 levels in Cavestalker and at least 11 levels of Ranger.

[Side]

If it gets spell progression I'll immediately switch from doing a 27/3 druid to 20/10. I'd love to do the 10 as is, but caster level is simply too important.

Any chance we could get a hint at what you guys are thinking about?

[chad878262]

I would say it is still relatively early in the process so I am hesitant to give a whole lot of details due to not very many QC members have commented and we simply have no consensus at this time. I will state that spell progression anywhere from 5/10 to 10/10 has been proposed with varying degrees of support as well as consideration for animal companion progression and other synergistic items. I am confident in saying that you will still have to take 27 Druid levels to get Dragon Shape so no 20/10 Druid/CS dragons running around... I am also confident that some amount of spell progression will be added, but as above it is a fairly wide range. Bane of Enemies has also been discussed, but might be a tad OP as it would allow for things like R11/CS10/Assassin 9 or R17/CS10/(insert class here)3 to get potentially full caster progression and some other high end perk. Not saying it is out of the discussion, but not something I think would get through. There needs to continue to be perks for staying pure too, after all.

So clear as mud, right? As I said, it is very early as are discussions of other classes/prc's that we want to give a second look. I'm fairly certain we approved changes to BFZ at some point and those updates haven't been made as I'm aware so no ETA on when CaveStalker will get the love. Finally, just in case there is any doubt, all of this is my opinion and as I said very few QC'ers have commented in the thread for CS as there are so many other priorities. Point being don't expect CS changes any time soon, that way if it happens it is a pleasant surprise, but if it doesn't come along in six months your not (overly) disappointed (or at least not surprised...)

[Side]

It's better than nothing in any case, thanks for sating my curiosity as best you can!

Though I will say that, regardless of which leveling path I take, I'm trying out a non-dragon druid build. Got a nice recommendation that dragon druid is the best last time I asked on here, but an elemental shape druid seems more fun RP wise.

[Aeb Ankor]

I am confident in saying that you will still have to take 27 Druid levels to get Dragon Shape so no 20/10 Druid/CS dragons running around...

What about a version of epic spider (or other appropriate epic shape) form instead? Opened with the CS levels but needing the similar prereqs and a feat cost

[chad878262]

I am confident in saying that you will still have to take 27 Druid levels to get Dragon Shape so no 20/10 Druid/CS dragons running around...

What about a version of epic spider (or other appropriate epic shape) form instead? Opened with the CS levels but needing the similar prereqs and a feat cost

possible, but as I said, it's very early.

[metaquad4]

I would say it is still relatively early in the process so I am hesitant to give a whole lot of details due to not very many QC members have commented and we simply have no consensus at this time. I will state that spell progression anywhere from 5/10 to 10/10 has been proposed with varying degrees of support as well as consideration for animal companion progression and other synergistic items. I am confident in saying that you will still have to take 27 Druid levels to get Dragon Shape so no 20/10 Druid/CS dragons running around... I am also confident that some amount of spell progression will be added, but as above it is a fairly wide range. Bane of Enemies has also been discussed, but might be a tad OP as it would allow for things like R11/CS10/Assassin 9 or R17/CS10/(insert class here)3 to get potentially full caster progression and some other high end perk. Not saying it is out of the discussion, but not something I think would get through. There needs to continue to be perks for staying pure too, after all.

So clear as mud, right? As I said, it is very early as are discussions of other classes/prc's that we want to give a second look. I'm fairly certain we approved changes to BFZ at some point and those updates haven't been made as I'm aware so no ETA on when CaveStalker will get the love. Finally, just in case there is any doubt, all of this is my opinion and as I said very few QC'ers have commented in the thread for CS as there are so many other priorities. Point being don't expect CS changes any time soon, that way if it happens it is a pleasant surprise, but if it doesn't come along in six months your not (overly) disappointed (or at least not surprised...)

Bane of All enemies can still be achieved with 21 Ranger/9 Assassin as well. You still need the total of 10 cavestalker and 11 ranger (at least, you should). Plus, if it were added with 7/10, you'd end up losing more CL with cavestalker and assassin (you'd lose 12 CL instead of 9 CL), so that trade-off exists. But, in return, you get all the cavestalker boons. As well, ranger 11 doesn't get HiPs. Ranger 17/Cavestalker 10/X 3 is a decent combo, but something with comparable power could be achieved with ranger 21/cavestalker 6 (which gets underdark affinity)/X 3. Plus, without ranger 21 (again, going off what I put) as a melee ranger at least, you lose out heavily without PTWF (as an archer ranger, you aren't as impacted, though one-shot is still handy).

As a 20/10 druid, you'd still be able to get dragonshape. But, you'd get none of the bonus feats (from epic druid) and neither of the dragonshape upgrades. So, you'd be stuck at base dragonshape (which was mediocre) and lessened DCs (due to the loss of bonus feats), but you'd make up it with higher AB. You'd probably end up sticking with the vermin shape.

A lack of animal companion progression makes this less of a druid/ranger PRC (as it seems meant to be, a druid/ranger PRC for underdark characters) as well, since a fair part of both of their spell lists is devoted to companion. Maybe 7/10 animal progression though, since you can use natural bond to make up for it (at-least, as a druid).

Its a trade-off, for cave-stalker's benefits.

[kkrazlite]

Spell progression for druids and rangers would be a good move. 7/10, 1 spell level lost at each hide of stone level (2, 6, and 10).

For druids, wildshape progression would also be good (as it does give you a wildshape, it should progress this).

For both rangers and druids, it could give animal companion progression, and it could give a choice of a vermin animal companion at level 1.

For rangers, it could give a special feat to allow "Bane of All Enemies" to be taken if the ranger takes 10 levels in Cavestalker and at least 11 levels of Ranger.

Well i don't know about you but seeing as a cave-stalker allows for wild shaping in the first place. I feel that it would give full spell progression just the same as herophant gives full progression to clerics. The only difference i'm seeing between the wildshape in cave-stalker and druids is that the cave-stalker only has one single choice in terms of shape but is more of a perfectionist towards the shape in question.

I do full agree though with your idea's on animal companion progression and the bane of all enemies feat switch.

[mrm3ntalist]

There is one thing for certain. Cavestalker wont qualify for dragonshape.

I am for cavestalker getting full cl progression. Druids lose dragonshape so getting full cl would make the prc more appealing. Rangers already get high BAB full cl

I think bane of enemies should be left as is until some other ranger prcs (hunter) are finalized.

[kkrazlite]

There is one thing for certain. Cavestalker wont qualify for dragonshape.

I am for cavestalker getting full cl progression. Druids lose dragonshape so getting full cl would make the prc more appealing. Rangers already get high BAB full cl

I think bane of enemies should be left as is until some other ranger prcs (hunter) are finalized.

Agreed.

[metaquad4]

If you had just cavestalker 3/druid 27, you'd be better going with vermin shape. You COULD get dragon shape, but it wouldn't have the druid 28-30 upgrades (which would make it not very useful, vermin shape would be far better).

At Cavestalker 10/Druid 20, even if you could get dragon shape, Vermin Shape would be a better choice.

[kkrazlite]

And that is why it should have full casting progression. There are both Pros and Cons to picking the class and that's how it should be while not hindering your main form of progression for a PrC that lore wise should have it.