Rogue Questions

[Side]

So I've been doing a lot of thinking about rogues lately. Before I played on our server I had a rogue on another server. I found it fairly fun, but back then I had no idea what I was doing, so I went through a lot of different character ideas before settling on anything.

Now, however, I know how to make characters I can play for long periods of time, even if their builds end up being horrible piles of nonsense. I looked back into rogues and came up with a basic build idea, but this has lead me to a lot of questions.

My first question is whether or not I should get Hide in Plain Sight. It's definitely a strong feat, and I do plan on using stealth with this character, but it doesn't fit the idea I'm looking at. I'm thinking of a mix of wilderness stalker and cave stalker for full speed sneaking, but fitting hide in plain sight leaves things a little tight.

Is HiPS the kind of thing I should consider taking over anything else, or is it just an exceedingly useful tool that you can live without if really you want to? I know I'll have to find other ways to defend myself, but if that's a reasonable course of action for a sneaker I think I might try it.

Second I was wondering about Open Lock and Disable Device. How much focus should I put into these? Is it worth while to max them out, or is there a point where adding to them is pointless? I know there are some insane locks on the server, but if it's not worth the effort to open them I'd like to know ahead of time.

Next I know sneaking is a dexterity skill, but is there any reasonable way to pull it off without using cloth armor? I know we have some spotters all over the server who will see me almost regardless of my equipment, so I'm wondering if there's any wiggle room for a lower dexterity sneaker when it comes to PvE content.

Lastly I have a question about crossbow sniper. This has less to do with rogue of course, but since I haven't fully decided on a weapon for my rogue I figured I could fit it here. How important is getting the weapon focus feat for crossbow sniper, and if it's important is there a known item anyone knows of that can cover it for you? My build's looking tight on feats even without access to HiPS, so if I find a reasonable way to fit the two crossbow sniper feats and the weapon focus feat into two free feat slots I'll likely choose a different weapon.

And before anyone says it I know crossbows fall off later on. I make a lot of bad decisions and level them up in spite of it all. Don't worry, I at least know what I'm getting into on that one.

[Steve]

- HiPS, yes. Always yes, if you want to have the most uber Feat in the game. Though, you need to invest all your resources in getting Items that increase H/MS Skills, and fortunately, that is super easy these days if you have lots and lots of coin!

- I usually take min 15 points for a Rogue, factoring in INT/DEX bonus as well. Don't discount that there are +10 Thieves Tools on the Server, for those DC 50 chests!!

- Mithral chain shirt has no Skill penalties. See here.

- There are a few crossbows out there with very nice feats on them, but none of those feats-by-item will count toward gaining on level up, other feats.

Hope that helps!

[chad878262]

To echo Steve, HiPS is a must for a rogue build. While the new epic equipment makes it easier for a rogue to obtain solid AC while also getting decent stealth you have to obtain those items first! and there is no 'greater' versions available anywhere, so you essentially go from +2 AC and +1 AC stuff with stealth bonuses to +4 AC w/ stealth bonuses, there is no +3 (or very limited +3) w/ stealth.

Camouflage is indeed a fantastic feat to have on a stealth build because if an enemy see's through your stealth, but his 4 friends don't, it's good to be able to stay in stealth and run! However, HiPS is probably the #1 feat a rogue needs, otherwise you've very limited ability to consistently land sneak attack. Bluff skill requires significant buffing to make Feint viable and even then High BAB enemies and those with high Spot nullify feint, while HiPS is generally still viable since you won't be in stealth long enough before attacking again for them to spot you.

If you post your full build I'm happy to give you advice, but the three feats you really want to aim for are HiPS, Expose Weakness and Epic Dodge (difficult to get and based on your details provided you won't qualify for it). For a Crossbow build Epic Dodge and Expose Weakness are less a priority, but HiPS is a bigger priority for you. Maybe you go Rogue/Assassin/Wilderness Stalker/Cavestalker? 10/8/8/4. This will get you Epic Precision, HiPS and most of what you need. The only issue is you miss out on hitting BAB 26 for a 6th APR, but with a crossbow this shouldn't be a major issue. Only way to get higher BAB would be replace Assassin with ShadowDancer and go R10/SD3/WS10/CS7 or R10/SD4/WS10/CS6, which loses death attack, assassin spells and has less sneak dice, but 6 APR (though you can't get that many attacks with a crossbow, so I think I'd go assassin.)

[Side]

Well, I'll be honest, I didn't post the build right off because it's a heavy work in progress, and I'm was also attempting to fit the ultimate late game cheese into it. It's spaced level wise to fit 40% self concealment, which makes it an absolute pain to mess with. I don't typically like showing off my horrible monstrosities of builds while the character is active or may soon be active, but in this case this character is a long ways off from being used, so I'll link it.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?252452

[chad878262]

Ok, see what you're trying to do, but still think hips is worth losing some of your feats. Shadow dancer and assassin will cost about the same, but there are benefits either way. You lose three rogue levels and 3 feats going SD (one rogue bonus feat and you have to take dodge and mobility), but get HiPS earlier which will aid leveling. Going assassin is the better route long term in my opinion. You lose 9 rogue levels (assassin 9 is better than rogue 11) and 3 feats (no feat requirement for assassin, but you lose the feats from rogue 13, 16 and 19). Assassin gets you HiPS later but gives you more sneak attack damage, death attack save or die and a few nice spells including cats grace (so you can end on 30 DEX instead of 31, which gets you back one of your lost feats.

Edit: also I really recommend you get crippling strike and epic precision for damage vs crit immune... although high self concealment is nice you're missing out on some really key abilities...

[Side]

I'm currently playing mainly as a weapon master, and I honestly don't feel it's too bad in the UD for crit based builds, so I'm willing to let that feat slide just based on personal experience.

The rest, however, gives me a lot to think about. Looks like I'll have to pick between Camoflage, HiPS, and Self Concealment. Two out of three isn't too bad.

[Blackman D]

in the UD crit immune is mostly undead which are easily avoided, however if you are taking about a loot run there are a good number of chests in the crypts

open lock doesnt need to be too high, enough that with dex and take 20 you can hit 40, disable and search is a must for the UD, the traps there can get bad (like anywhere else) but more importantly if you can recover them then they will probably sell for more than what you got from the chest...

and honestly, epic dodge > self conceal and much easier to get, camo... im assuming you are taking about the feat also known as stealth run? while being able to run while stealth may seem nice also realize that running nets you like a -10 MS penalty where walking is only -5, depending on your stealth score it will be way easier for something to hear you run by, and in the UD where there is no grass to dampen the sound we are talking about running across rocks most the time which is another -5 for terrain... stealth run is highly situational on its use and is much better on the surface

[chad878262]

I agreed with BMD on Epic Dodge vs. Self concealment. You could do that w/ Rogue16/SD3/WS8/CS3 and still get some self concealment feats as well. Taking Assassin route you won't be able to get Epic Dodge while retaining both WS 7 (for camouflage) and CS (so it will work in natural caverns) in your build since you need at least 13 rogue levels (to get improved evasion and defensive roll). That said, Assassin gets Invisibility spells, making camouflage and Cavestalker less important. So if you were only going this route for that reason, you can essentially use invisibility from Assassin when you want to run (most enemies in the areas you use to get from one area to the next don't see through invisibility, but some do...those might see through stealth anyway, especially when you're running). You could try Ranger 13/A8/CS9 which will have less sneak damage then your builds, but should get most of the rest of what you are trying for, and will get you some of those archery feats for free. note that CS9 also gets 8% concealment, though I am uncertain if that would stack with any of your self concealment feats or not.

[Side]

I don't know if it would stack either, but I also can't find a reasonable way to fit four self concealment feats alongside the required levels of cave stalker to make it matter. I can go with three feats and cave stalker for 38%, but then I might as well take four feats and a different class.

Epic Dodge does seem rather nice, but what makes one attack dealing no damage every round so much better than a 40% chance of every incoming attack dealing no damage? Is it just the reliability of it alongside other defenses? It does seem strong, and might easily be better than self concealment, but I'm not seeing what makes it better to the point of it being no contest.

[chad878262]

It's the highest bab attack that auto misses...and each subsequent attack is at -5 AB from the highest so it's like having +5 AC...

[Side]

I didn't actually know about the -5 AB. That does make it seem more appealing. I'll likely keep the current build and save it with whatever updates I make from this thread, but I'll make a second build that uses Epic Dodge to mess around with. When the time comes to make the character (if I retire one of my current set) I'll make another thread with any more questions.

Thanks for the help yet again!

[Tsidkenu]

This was my self-concealment build I made a while back after being challenged to do so. It's a bit meh, but if you want to give it a shot go right ahead!

NB: Requires strongheart halfling so not available for UD use.

[Side]

Looks pretty similar to what my build currently looks like:

http://nwn2db.com/build/?252452

Great minds think alike, right?

At the very least seeing your halfling build helps me with visualizing what I would want from a self concealment focused build. Thanks for posting!

[Tsidkenu]

Mmm, I left a comment in your build on nwn2db but I'll re-hash it here: Never underestimate the utility of taking Rapid Shot as early in your build as possible. I think folks tend to forget that they actually have to level these characters up (unless you transfer a bit of RCR XP to avoid low levels) and having 2 attacks per round from level 1 (my build) or level 3 (my recommendations to your build) makes an immense difference to the ease of the levelling process.

[Side]

I did move things around, but I only moved it as early as level 6. Rapid Shot's description says it does not work with crossbows, and since I planned on using a crossbow I was treating it as a prerequisite feat only. Is this not the case, or do you also recommend not using a crossbow in those early levels?