Blast Infidel (Hierophant Feat) + Necromancy Defined Spells

[Steve]

For consideration:

The Blast Infidel Feat is:

Blast Infidel
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Hierophant 1
Specifics: The Hierophant now deals double the damage for any negative energy spells that he casts (inflict wounds series, death knell, harm, slay living and negative energy ray). This does not apply to Vampiric Feast or Spell-like abilities.
Use: Automatic

Currently, the mechanics of Blast Infidel only allow it to affect spells that cause direct damage damage with Negative Energy (though, that is somewhat contradicted by Slay Living being supported, which is foremost a Save-or-Die spell, with a secondary dmg).

However, Negative Energy is defined as:

Negative energy was a type of energy originating on the Negative Energy Plane. It manifested as a black, crackling surge of power.[1] It was the antithesis of positive energy, being the "lifeforce" of undead creatures,[2] healing them while causing harm to the living.[1]

Negative Energy comes from a physical plane in the Cosmology. That Plane has traits.

Necromancy is a school that focuses on manipulating Negative Energy of that Plane:

Necromancy is the school of magic whose spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force. Spells involving the undead make up a large portion of this school, including animate dead and finger of death.[1] Highly focused on the Negative Energy Plane, most spells from this school drain abilities.[citation needed] This school is the one most associated with lichdom, a process that allows the caster to live (or rather, exist) in an undead state indefinitely by securing their essence in a receptacle known as a phylactery.[citation needed] A wizard who specializes in the necromantic school is called a necromancer.[2]

Spells such as the Inflict Wounds line are from the School of Necromancy spell list. So is Death Knell, Harm, Slay Living AND Negative Energy Ray.

So...why not the other Divine Necromancy spells get affect by Blast Infidel?

As in, for the Divine Caster: Energy Drain, Healing Sting, Horrid Wilting (Suffering Domain granted), Poison, Symbol of Pain, Undeath to Death, and...wait for it...Vampiric Feast!

If it looks like negative energy, smells like negative energy, is powered by negative energy and is from a Magic School of Negative Energy (Necromancy), is it not a negative energy spell? That a Hierophant can cast? And thus, would not Blast Infidel have an affect on all those spells??



Cheers.

[chad878262]

Isn't Vampiric feast powerful enough Steve?

For the rest, I'd be fine with negative energy spells being effected, but doesn't horrid wilting do magic damage? Also no to undeath to death because it doesn't deal negative energy.

[Steve]

There is not thing as too powerful. What there is however is a decision made somewhere of what constitutes as "enough."

I am not trying to be cheezy with the OP, instead, trying to be absolutely clear about reasoning for why things are the way they are, or why things are not the way they might be, if the limiting decision is identified.

Now, regarding Vampiric Feast: yes, it is an EPIC FEAT/Epic Spell, and in the world of PnP 3.5e, an epic spell requires paying both coin and XP, in order to use. That is not NWN2, which is far more easy to gain/use/cast...I'd say WAY TOO EASY in comparison, but...that's another discussion (probably). But yes, currently Vampiric Feast does cause some hefty 1-time damage, if used properly and with skill (one can waste it, if done incorrectly). But what is "enough" compared to the Hit Points granted certain mobs/bosses? If we're going to talk relativity of Epic Spells to Epic Content to Epic Bosses, then we need to crack open the egg and see all the numbers, under the umbrella context of the ease/difficulty and repetitiveness of the BGTSCC Server.

As a small token of forwarding the conversation, should Blast Infidel be changed to effect Vampiric Feast, I don't see why there cannot be a tax added to the conjunction of use, something in the line of how Blood Magic takes CON dmg. Essentially, go to PnP here: calculate and take a coin+XP hit, if one were to add Blast Infidel to their Vampiric Feast dmg.

On that note, why not apply that principle to all the other Necromancy spells I've listed. Maybe on the face of it, Blast Infidel affecting only Negative Energy Damage(ing) spells is not worthy of a tax. But maybe if it is used to apply to energy drains or other Negative Energy aspects, then the drain one causes others, takes a drain on the caster!!

So, to be clear: my first point in the OP is to find the reasoning/decision behind the current Blast Infidel limitation, be that IC or OOC made. My second point is to question whether or not the use of Blast Infidel has alternative methods of re-scripting so that its use expands, but also associate a risk v. reward to it, a tax so-to-speak, so that its not just "Hi! I'm Necro Joey, and...click Vamp Feast = I win!!" change.

Cheers.

PS— RE: Horrid Wilting: all PnP 3.5e sources I can find show Horrid Wilting NOT DEFINED as magic dmg, just "damage." I did find a 5e reference to it being "necrotic" damage (if that helps us?). It is, however, always classified as a Necromancy spell, and thus, I'd argue that on BGTSCC, it should be changed from Magic DMG to Negative Energy dmg, which...will upset many, because it will probably make the spell worthless against any with Death Ward up.

RE: Undeath to Death is, like I'm proposing, of the Negative Plane via its Necromancy definition. And Blast Infidel would therefore increase the HD affected. Yes...we must question the "enough" aspect of this, in regards to what I wrote of, above.

[mrm3ntalist]

http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/hie ... index.html

Blast Infidel (Su): A hierophant can use negative energy spells to their maximum effect on creatures with an alignment opposed to the hierophant. (See the table below for a list of which alignments are opposed to each alignment.) Any spell with a description that involves inflicting or channeling negative energy (inflict spells, mass inflict light wounds, harm) cast on a creature of the opposed alignment works as if under the effect of a Maximize Spell feat (without using a higher-level spell slot). Undead affected by this ability heal the maximized amount of damage.

If you want to make a suggestion feel free to make one. However, this feat is already very powerful ( 150 damage with harm on a successful save 300 when the save fails ).

[chad878262]

PS— RE: Horrid Wilting: all PnP 3.5e sources I can find show Horrid Wilting NOT DEFINED as magic dmg, just "damage." I did find a 5e reference to it being "necrotic" damage (if that helps us?). It is, however, always classified as a Necromancy spell, and thus, I'd argue that on BGTSCC, it should be changed from Magic DMG to Negative Energy dmg, which...will upset many, because it will probably make the spell worthless against any with Death Ward up.

RE: Undeath to Death is, like I'm proposing, of the Negative Plane via its Necromancy definition. And Blast Infidel would therefore increase the HD affected. Yes...we must question the "enough" aspect of this, in regards to what I wrote of, above.

I think I can actually answer this part so I'll start here and do my best. Rasael would have to answer for most of the other stuff as he created the PRC and the abilities therein. With regard to Horrid Wilting, it is Magic Damage as defined in game and negative energy is a damage type so I would err on the side of 'intended to be that way' so wouldn't really be for changing it, especially since previous d&d games also had it as magic damage. Necrotic doesn't help us much as 5e is very different with damage types, as well as resistances (there is no immunity or percentages, there is either resistant or nothing. Resistant to a damage type = 50% always. In addition, all damage types are just that, damage. So poison does poison damage, necrotic does necrotic damage, etc.)

Based on the description of the ability I don't see it as being able to manipulate all negative energy so much as being able to enhance the damage, therein. This is why I don't think Undeath to Death would necessarily be impacted, though I could be wrong.


As for the rest of your post, I think Rasael would be the only person who could explain why it was designed the way it is. QC reviewed the PRC and abilities and after some minor changes approved for implementation. While we do occasionally recommend abilities if something needs a boost, we didn't see Hierophant as needing one. If you feel that this ability is lackluster as it currently stands it's something that can be discussed, but it wouldn't be a high priority in my opinion that would go before other items in the pipeline. As M3ntalist stated, it is already strong so would need some compelling reason to further improve it.

[metaquad4]

I don't think undeath to death would be impacted. The feat clearly states that it doubles any negative energy damage dealt. If it doesn't deal negative energy damage, it shouldn't be doubled. Fairly simple.

[Steve]

http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/hie ... index.html

Blast Infidel (Su): A hierophant can use negative energy spells to their maximum effect on creatures with an alignment opposed to the hierophant. (See the table below for a list of which alignments are opposed to each alignment.) Any spell with a description that involves inflicting or channeling negative energy (inflict spells, mass inflict light wounds, harm) cast on a creature of the opposed alignment works as if under the effect of a Maximize Spell feat (without using a higher-level spell slot). Undead affected by this ability heal the maximized amount of damage.

If you want to make a suggestion feel free to make one. However, this feat is already very powerful ( 150 damage with harm on a successful save 300 when the save fails ).

As M3ntalist stated, it is already strong so would need some compelling reason to further improve it.

I already made a suggestion!! I mean, if my question in the OP could not be seen as a suggestion for consideration, let me be clear as clear: Blast Infidel, by its definition, should effect every spell that has Necromancy as the description.

I laid out my reasons for this in the OP.

But I'd like to reflect on the description M3nt quoted:

Any spell with a description that involves inflicting or channeling negative energy (inflict spells, mass inflict light wounds, harm) cast on a creature of the opposed alignment works as if under the effect of a Maximize Spell

I underlined what is important here, to reflect upon, in my opinion. Unless someone can point out other information, all necromancy spells are channeling negative energy. Negative energy is what fuels Undead. Necromancy is a "school of magic whose spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force."

Now, as M3nt's link points out, Blast Infidel should work in a more limited manner. Alignment versus alignment. I can imagine that if that was even possible to script, most Players would consider it a worthless Feat to take, because of limited use.

So, on the plus side of things as they are now, Blast Infidel is able to work against all alignments, making it much more useful.

But that itself is not reason to say "no" against Blast Infidel working for all spells that "inflict or channel" negative energy.

But, like I said or at least implied in my OP and first follow up response, if the view and opinion of QC is that any additional benefit or expansion of Blast Infidel is over powered and unnecessary, then okay, I accept that as the limit imposed. I just want it to be official. Can it be said officially, please?

[mrm3ntalist]

I just want it to be official. Can it be said officially, please?

What i posted was my personal opionion. There cant be something "official" since this hasnt been discussed. I will make a post about it in the QC forums.

[Steve]

I just want it to be official. Can it be said officially, please?

What i posted was my personal opionion. There cant be something "official" since this hasnt been discussed. I will make a post about it in the QC forums.

Thanks matey!!

[Steve]

Checking in to see what QC's response to my suggestion/request posited here.

Cheers.

[V'rass]

Agree with 75% of this proposal. Make the other negative energy spells do double damage except for vampiric feast and horrid wilting. Empowered energy drain would be sick.

[mrm3ntalist]

Checking in to see what QC's response to my suggestion/request posited here.

Cheers.

It was a unanimous no. The reasons are about the PRC being already powerful enough in general and the feat in specific works very well with the current spell selection.

[Tsidkenu]

Huzzah! Sense prevails!

[Steve]

It was a unanimous no. The reasons are about the PRC being already powerful enough in general and the feat in specific works very well with the current spell selection.

Well now I know how QC thinks!

QC 1 / Lore 0.

[Steve]

And I have to say, it seems insane to me that you'd not even consider Healing Sting, for what Blast Infidel is about.

That spell fulfills all the seemingly unspoken requirements for Blast Infidel as you guys want it to work.