Make Sorcerers Great Again

[metaquad4]

Sorcerers are by no means a bad class. Nore are they bottom of the totem pole. But, I think they could use a couple of changes. Lets look at them compared to wizards for a moment:

1) Wizards (Speced, Specing does little to hinder you as there are a couple schools with very few useful spells) get 5 spells/day on each circle.

1) Sorcerers get 6 spells/day, one more.

2) Wizards get INT as a class skill (and have no need for any CHA), which opens up the use of HiPs far easier and turns them into skill monkeys.

2) Sorcerers get CHA (and still need INT for a few skills), which only really synergises with divine shield (and +saves from paladin/blackguard/warlock) for them.

3) Wizards can learn 255 spells.

3) Sorcerers can learn (in order of circle, excluding cantrips) 5 spells, 5 spells, 4 spells, 4 spells, 4 spells, then 3 spells from 6th circle onward.

4) Wizards have to slot their spells.

4) Sorcerers get spontaneous casting.

5) Wizards get a bonus feat every 5 levels, up to 20.

5) Sorcerers get ???.

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I propose that what sorcerers give is negligible and aside from divine shield builds there is really no reason to go one. Spontaneous casting can be argued, but any skilled wizard has a setup for dealing with 99% of the content they'll face (PvE and PvP alike). And they can choose a set-up to make them exceedingly powerful in any situation they would go in. Sorcerers on the other hand gain a handful of spells (in order to be effective, there are also a few "required spells" they must take) that makes them comparatively more and more useless as more spells are released. To rectify this, I propose two changes.

1) Sorcerers, at a natural (without feat boosters) CL of 21 gain 1 more level 1 spell. At CL 22, they gain 1 more level 2 spell. At 23, they gain 1 more level 3 spell. This continues until a natural CL 30, at which point they gain 1 spell of each circle. This will allow them to have a few more spells (if they don't multiclass too much into none casting classes or classes with dead caster levels), improving their quality of life.

2) Sorcerers gain 2 more spells/day (In other words, a 33% increase in their spells/day). This puts them at 8 spells/day at 20, or double what wizards get without speccing (and 3 more than what wizards get with speccing). This will make the distinction more clear between the two classes.

[Young Werther]

5) Wizards get free meta magic every 5th level.

Also sorcers get synergy with the dark blessing/paladin blessing.

Also I agree with OP and think they should get more spells per day.

[metaquad4]

Edited, thank you.

[Tsidkenu]

When you choose Sorcerer as your base class, you forfeit a wizard's versatility for sheer blasting power with your fewer allowed spells. I'm of the opinion that it should remain as is because the ASoC PRC is already there to improve sorcerer spell management by splitting their spells per day over several spell tiers with metamagic.

If you want more versatility in spell selection, bonus feats and skills, RCR into a wizard.

[metaquad4]

That is purely theoretical and fluff talk. A wizard can achieve the same blasting power, with far more versatility in both build and spellbook management. 1 more spell/day isn't a whole lot and (as I mentioned before) a wizard can achieve similar results in "preparedness for all situations" as a sorcerer by being knowledge and a bit frugal about their spell selection.

And ASoC does the exact same for wizards, so that isn't a point of differentiation.

[chad878262]

I think without bonus slots from INT / CHA a Wizard maxes out at 4 spells / day / level unless they chose an opposition school while Sorcerer is 6/day. So a Sorcerer vs. a specialist wizard has the added benefit of being able to pick his spells from the full list whereas the wizard has lost the use of a school

It should also be noted that the wizard, if a blaster is going to have a difficult time knowing how many spells, what metamagics to use, etc. unless we are just talking about grinding a boss you've gone up against hundreds of times.

Wizard goes up to the balor with 7 Avasculates and 5 Empowered..."oops."

Sorc, "well, guess I better use one of my other spells."

[Tsidkenu]

Playing a wizard blaster requires a decent amount of meta-knowledge about the server and its creatures/zones, and preparing spells appropriate for each area, something not every beginning player has. A Sorc/AsoC/Archmage with Elemental Shaping can turn Ice Darts into Fire/Electrical/Acid/Sonic darts at will, and then cast them across 4 spell levels (2nd regular, 3rd empowered, 4th maximised, 5th quickened) on the fly and on demand, not to mention being able to do the same with (Lesser) Orbs, Ice Storm, IGMS etc. On the fly & on demand. With no saving throw and no spell resistance. A wizard must sacrifice a lot of versatility with spell selection to accomplish the same, not to mention they have fewer spells per day to play around with as well. It can be done, but Sorcerers do a far better job of it in my opinion.

Wizards make far superior DC casters than as blasters due to their bonus feats, making it far more worthwhile to wipe a mob of enemies with a few (or one) DC spells than relying on sheer damage output like blaster sorcerers should.

A sorcerer's versatility comes with sheer spell power across metamagicked spell levels using their limited, but carefully chosen, spells known. That's the trade off between the two classes, and how it should remain.

[Ariella]

I agree they should get one more spell per day and the ability to re-pick spells every second epic level like they are suppose to have. Technically wizards currently do get an addition slot per level then they would get in PnP with the way chosen schools work in nwn2. One of the other things you forgot to mention is wizards are also better at multiclassing, With the level 3 spells requirement you can fit in more of a PRC which is more of a power boost in nwn2 then pnp.

[Tsidkenu]

Technically wizards currently do get an addition slot per level then they would get in PnP with the way chosen schools work in nwn2

I assume you mean that all specialists besides diviners in PnP have to pick 2 prohibited spell schools rather than NWN2's one. However, alongside that is a far greater variety of spells available for the specialised school (compared to NWN2) so I can understand why Obsidian limited it to 1 for specialists and 2 for Red Wizards (PnP Red wizards have 3, except diviners who have 2).

In terms of spells per day, there is no difference between PnP & NWN2. At 20th level a generalist wizard will have:

4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4

A specialist will have:

4*/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5

*Cantrips do not get the specialist bonus in NWN2.

A 20th level sorcerer, on the other hand, will have:

6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6 spells per day and

6/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 spells known.

They still have +1 cast per day on a specialist wizard. Why do they need more still? A specialist has sacrificed an entire spell school to bridge that gap by one.

I do agree with allowing sorcerers to swap out spells every 2nd level though. That mechanic seems fair and reasonable.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I agree sorcerers could use some slight buff but I really don't think more spells is the way to go. Maybe 1 free metamagic feat every 10 levels. Or even something more RP oriented such as access to the Diplomacy and Intimidate which would make a lot of sense IMO.

[Ariella]

A bonus feat every 6 levels maybe, 10 levels would be useless.

[Tsidkenu]

Wizards receive bonus feats because they study magic intensively for it. Magic comes innately to a sorcerer and not strictly through study. Hence, if you want the 'studious' aspect of sorcerous magic you can take the ASoC PRC (which is an ideal PRC for sorcerers, actually).

As I said earlier, if you want bonus feats, if you want extra skills, if you want versatility and 245 spells in your spell book, remake your sorcerer into a wizard!

Those are the drawbacks you need to accept when you choose Sorcerer

[Asmodea]

I play a sorcerer a lot. And I think really the -only- change that makes sense is more ability to shift around spells. I am not saying on the fly. But let us say for example that once a month you could exchange one spell for another. This stops you from just swapping spells willy nilly But also stops that feeling of: Oh I need to RCR because this new spell came out. And allows you to slowly kind of meddle with your spell selection. That would be really useful for Sorcs I think and not at all unbalancing. I do play a sorcerer pretty heavily though! So I may be biased on the not unbalancing part.

[Ariella]

Technically wizards currently do get an addition slot per level then they would get in PnP with the way chosen schools work in nwn2

I assume you mean that all specialists besides diviners in PnP have to pick 2 prohibited spell schools rather than NWN2's one. However, alongside that is a far greater variety of spells available for the specialised school (compared to NWN2) so I can understand why Obsidian limited it to 1 for specialists and 2 for Red Wizards (PnP Red wizards have 3, except diviners who have 2).

In terms of spells per day, there is no difference between PnP & NWN2. At 20th level a generalist wizard will have:

4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4

A specialist will have:

4*/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5

*Cantrips do not get the specialist bonus in NWN2.

A 20th level sorcerer, on the other hand, will have:

6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6 spells per day and

6/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 spells known.

They still have +1 cast per day on a specialist wizard. Why do they need more still? A specialist has sacrificed an entire spell school to bridge that gap by one.

I do agree with allowing sorcerers to swap out spells every 2nd level though. That mechanic seems fair and reasonable.

They are only suppose to gain one spell slot per level for a spell of the selected specialty not any, On top they should have two banned schools not one, They should not be able to use wands to produce the effects of those spells. You can say that two banned schools is unfair but well sorcerers have a much much, greater limitation in what spells they can have even with two banned schools. Personally i think this is enough of a difference from PnP to warrant an additional spell per level for balance between the two classes. Excluding things like the 3rd level spell requirements for build supremacy, The usefulness of int, The bonus feats and the usefulness of DC over blasting in simple effectiveness.

[chad878262]

I play a sorcerer a lot. And I think really the -only- change that makes sense is more ability to shift around spells. I am not saying on the fly. But let us say for example that once a month you could exchange one spell for another. This stops you from just swapping spells willy nilly But also stops that feeling of: Oh I need to RCR because this new spell came out. And allows you to slowly kind of meddle with your spell selection. That would be really useful for Sorcs I think and not at all unbalancing. I do play a sorcerer pretty heavily though! So I may be biased on the not unbalancing part.

MrM3ntalist stated in another thread, we are looking in to the potential for allowing Sorcerers to switch out spells on level up from 20-30. We aren't certain it is possible from an engine perspective, but if it is that should help a bit to tweak your spells as you level in the epics and figure out what works best for you.

Unfortunately I do not see how we would allow re-working the spells at max level without RCR, certainly no way to automate allowing switching out spells once / month that I can think of.