Hide in Shadows - Improvement.

[Mallore]

There is a nifty feat called Hide In Shadows which by its name sounds very cool and the thought of even cooler, but in function its rather useless as a very bad HiPS (Hide in Plain Sight) Some say its not meant to compete with HiPS, gosh have I heard that a bunch, but then what is it for?

The feat is a very bad version of hips, Unusable in boss fights, fires off inconstantly from my own use to get to the point, why do we have it? If you have HiPS, you will never take Hide in Shadows. Rogues on this server MUST HAVE, HiPS to be viable in the vast majority of game content. Rogues are feat starved little beasts and have no room as it is for a Feat that simply does not function well. The builds for rogues will always be Rogue/SD + stuff or Rogue/Assassin all inorder to get HiPS until we have more roguish prcs. Honestly how many rogue 20's are on the server? Rogue 30? Rogue... not a dip! That population is very small. Anyways enough lamentation of this situation and on to constructive things.

How to Make Hide In Shadows useable. I think the first approach is that it should not be in competition with HiPS. Nothing will be better then HiPS and we shouldn't be looking for ways to make this ability come close, (as close means worse) or better (that be op). Remember there is no reason at all ever to take Hide in Shadows, you are always better off going at-least 3 sd for HiPS, or assassin. For this reason we should not be looking to make Hide in Shadows as good as hips, near it, or even the same ability... instead lets make it fun.

Making Hide in Shadows Fun again! =P

I propose the feat be a cascade of abilities as the Character grows in levels (perhaps linked to a key class)

Example.

Hide In Shadows - You have learned to use or manipulate the shadows to your advantage to achieve tasks.

level 6 - Opening a Chest doesn't break stealth. ((You figured out how to do this! complete rp sense))

Level 11 - You can cast scrolls and use wands with out breaking stealth.

Level 15 - While stealthed and entering a room the door animation does not trigger. this represents your ability to sneak in through a window, be on a roof through a hatch or ability to manipulate crowds and distractions or because the world is filled with magic and its just possible!

Level 18 - You can move in stealth with your full movement speed ((aka not that slow walk))



Some thing like this makes the feat a tool for situations, role play and fun. It does not make it compete with HiPS and if the levels restricted to class type(s) it may encourage newer funner rp building. None of these suggestions really break power or make things OP.

Other ideas included, and possible, or not at all.

When standing still you get a bonus to hide.

When at X range you receive a Dodge bonus to AC from range attacks.

When in a certain shadow you receive a bonus to Saves vs spells

When in shadows you gain the ability of range slight of hand ((this is actually a PNP ability))

When active in shadows your second flurry is also SA damage???

the list goes on =P

Anyways point is. I like to see Hide in Shadows not compete with HiPS, but be its own utility feat. Making or trying to get Hide in Shadows to be anything like HiPS will keep it in the range of not used, not needed, and never taken.

[K'yon Oblodra]

Certainly like a couple of these ideas. Not sure what the initial idea behind the feat was but the new ideas sound interesting even if some are probably not possible to script... Not sure on the passing doors for instance.

[Dagesh]

Full speed stealth would be nice. I'm not opposed to rogues getting HiPS myself but that's a different thread.

I would like to see stacked feats for Hide in Shadows, myself. I would also simply add bonus AC no matter what weapon is used. Maybe after Defensive Roll is taken.

[Deathgrowl]

QC has been discussing HitS for about a week, and other alternatives to make non-hips sneak attackers more viable.

So we're on it!

[Dagesh]

QC has been discussing HitS for about a week, and other alternatives to make non-hips sneak attackers more viable.

So we're on it!

Thanks for the heads up, DG.

[Svabodnik]

QC has been discussing HitS for about a week, and other alternatives to make non-hips sneak attackers more viable.

So we're on it!

Got my fingers crossed that one of those alternatives will be a rethink of Feint. : )

Not to hijack the thread topic from HitS, but from my experience thus far Feint starts to fall off fairly quickly since it's a contest between a skill (Bluff) vs. a skill (Spot, something quite a few enemies already have a decent stat in) and BAB (something that scales directly off of enemy HD, meaning the higher level you go, the faster any item/other bonuses you have to Bluff start to become meaningless). In contrast, HiPS is just two contests between different skills, meaning it's easier to keep pace with enemy stats.

Of course, in its current incarnation you can pretty much spam Feint with every attack (unlike HiPS, which has the stealth delay), but on certain enemies all that amounts to is a scrolling wall of *Feint attempt: Failed*. I for one would be perfectly content with Feint being Bluff vs. BAB + Sense Motive (the way it is in PnP, not something most enemies will have points in, but still available to give a hard counter to Feint) but being limited to a 5-8 second cooldown. Personally, I'd rather have an ability I can use once and have a moderate chance of success rather than one that can be used a thousand times but with no chance to succeed at all.

t. Someone with a non-HiPS rogue build.

[VillageGreenWitch]

QC has been discussing HitS for about a week, and other alternatives to make non-hips sneak attackers more viable.

So we're on it!

The recently announced HitS improvement is a very good one already, every further effort is very much appreciated.

In contrast, HiPS is just two contests between different skills, meaning it's easier to keep pace with enemy stats.

Oh how I wish that was true.
But it isn't, unfortunately.

Hidden: show

The rolls are determinded like this:

Hide (-5 if moving, -10 if running, -circumstance factors) vs Spot +d20 (+5 if standing still) once per six seconds (or once per second if the spotter stands still)

Same principle for Move Silently vs Listen.

So while a spotter / listener can just max one skill (+feats if they want - pretty pointless, though, since you will most probably spot/hear about 90% of the servers' sneak population eventually if your buffed skill is ~50) the sneak needs to max both skills and make sure that his resulting values exceed the spotters/listeners respective skills by at least 30 (d20 + moving penalty + standing still bonus).

[Svabodnik]

(...)
Oh how I wish that was true.
But it isn't, unfortunately.

Hidden: show

The rolls are determinded like this:

Hide (-5 if moving, -10 if running, -circumstance factors) vs Spot +d20 (+5 if standing still) once per six seconds (or once per second if the spotter stands still)

Same principle for Move Silently vs Listen.

So while a spotter / listener can just max one skill (+feats if they want - pretty pointless, though, since you will most probably spot/hear about 90% of the servers' sneak population eventually if your buffed skill is ~50) the sneak needs to max both skills and make sure that his resulting values exceed the spotters/listeners respective skills by at least 30 (d20 + moving penalty + standing still bonus).

I suppose I should have clarified that I meant the context of popping HiPS in melee for the sole purpose of snapping out of it as soon as you can make a sneak attack against an adjacent target, rather than using it defensively to sneak away (or remain around other players/enemies undetected for any extended period of time).

[chad878262]

The QC discussion includes a vast array of possible enhancements, but it's a thin line between helping non-HiPSing rogues while not overly empowering the top end rogue builds. Feint is of course a part of the discussion as are other possibilities, but it's a difficult conversation with a lot things to consider so any decision may take some time. Feel free, of course to continue discussing such, but another thread would likely be a better idea seeing as this thread appears to be specific to HitS. Again, another thread for Rogue changes is fine, and might even prove helpful, but QC won't make a post until we've discussed all the possibilities and come to a decision.

On topic:

Hide In Shadows - You have learned to use or manipulate the shadows to your advantage to achieve tasks.

level 6 - Opening a Chest doesn't break stealth. ((You figured out how to do this! complete rp sense))

Level 11 - You can cast scrolls and use wands with out breaking stealth.

Level 15 - While stealthed and entering a room the door animation does not trigger. this represents your ability to sneak in through a window, be on a roof through a hatch or ability to manipulate crowds and distractions or because the world is filled with magic and its just possible!

Level 18 - You can move in stealth with your full movement speed ((aka not that slow walk))

In my opinion the level 6 bit would be fine to implement. Stealth looting was addressed by taking you out of stealth/invisibility because of 'ninja looting' which is no longer an issue since chest loot spawns for each PC once per reset instead of once every ~15 minutes. We could theoretically consider just removing whatever mechanic that drops stealth/invisibility on opening chests, but having an actual ability that allows for it might be interesting. Whatever it is should be for Phantoms too and shouldn't cost yet another feat.

Scrolls and Wands, are tricky. If there is a way to make it so you can use non-aggressive scrolls and wands without breaking stealth I would be ok with it. However, if it includes offensive spells I would be very much against it. So stealth buffing, sure...anything else no.

I don't know if the door animation can be suppressed or not, that would be for devs. However, I would be concerned with Guild infiltration since it is supposed to require a DM, but if the guild members don't have spot you could technically follow them in and spy on their conversation without any DM oversight. This could have far ranging CvC issues which the DM's would need to weigh in on. In theory it's great, but we would have to consider the full impacts of such a change.

I don't like giving full movement speed in stealth since that is a Ranger/Druid/Wilderness Stalker thing in natural environments only. Maybe give them full stealth movement only in cities/non-natural environments? This would require some changes since currently cities are natural (ie Rangers can stealth run in BG). Otherwise to make it simple I would rather give them an ability that allows 75% movement speed in stealth, so that they do not surpass what a Ranger gets. That said many rogue PRC's grant evasion, defensive roll, or other key rogue abilities (in some cases faster than a rogue gets them) making them in to melee/caster dip PRC's so if there is any class that deserves to gain some other classes neat/unique thing...it's the rogue.

All of this is, of course, my personal opinion and has nothing to do with any QC discussions.

[Mallore]

I wanted to go with an approach of this feat representing training and investment over time, progressively getting better. Also we should accept you always should take hips as a rogue. It be like playing druid and for going spells. you just need it, and you will have more fun.

In my opinion the level 6 bit would be fine to implement. Stealth looting was addressed by taking you out of stealth/invisibility because of 'ninja looting' which is no longer an issue since chest loot spawns for each PC once per reset instead of once every ~15 minutes. We could theoretically consider just removing whatever mechanic that drops stealth/invisibility on opening chests, but having an actual ability that allows for it might be interesting. Whatever it is should be for Phantoms too and shouldn't cost yet another feat.

I do not see why phantoms couldn't either. Its sort of a reward for not dipping in these classes but more so reflective of skill and role play. One of the primary reasons it is useful is that a good portion of our epic content is Undead. A more pure rogue can not kill them, atleast cost effectively. crit immunie means 1/2 sneak damage, you Do 50 damage on hit on average. 50- 1/2 = 25. then they all have DR/- for the most part, which is usually 5 to 20. so you do 20 to 5 damage a hit. Granted should rogues be able to kill undead? maybe not. Maybe not solo them but lets be fair, a rogue would jsut sneak in and steal the treasure. This should be the way going forward. So rogue players are not forced to facing just one or two bosses, it gets boring.

Scrolls and Wands, are tricky. If there is a way to make it so you can use non-aggressive scrolls and wands without breaking stealth I would be ok with it. However, if it includes offensive spells I would be very much against it. So stealth buffing, sure...anything else no.

If i recall correctly, it is the hostile act that breaks stealth. So if you target yourself it shouldn't break, but say if I target you with Lightning bolt, once the targeted triggers that breaks stealth and invis. I do not believe the break is on the spell but the action. So this might be doable with out that fear. Basicly this ability is like turning yourself invisible or etheral and then buffing. If basic buffs dont break invisibility, it shouldn't break stealth either. And your trained! thats whats all these skills reflect, investment in training.

I don't know if the door animation can be suppressed or not, that would be for devs. However, I would be concerned with Guild infiltration since it is supposed to require a DM, but if the guild members don't have spot you could technically follow them in and spy on their conversation without any DM oversight. This could have far ranging CvC issues which the DM's would need to weigh in on. In theory it's great, but we would have to consider the full impacts of such a change.

I know door animation can be suppressed, Seen it on other servers. I think we have one here that was scripted with some sort of suppression too. As for guild halls, I personally believe private conversations behind locked guild doors is a negative for the server. But thats another topic. I think the way your worry is prevented is two fold. A reminder in the feat text box, you must have dm over sight on guild halls. But more so - the ability wont work on locked doors. As you have to be able to select and progress through the transition for the affect to work, as its locked you cant get to that step. In the end the door locked itself handles this.

I don't like giving full movement speed in stealth since that is a Ranger/Druid/Wilderness Stalker thing in natural environments only. Maybe give them full stealth movement only in cities/non-natural environments? This would require some changes since currently cities are natural (ie Rangers can stealth run in BG). Otherwise to make it simple I would rather give them an ability that allows 75% movement speed in stealth, so that they do not surpass what a Ranger gets. That said many rogue PRC's grant evasion, defensive roll, or other key rogue abilities (in some cases faster than a rogue gets them) making them in to melee/caster dip PRC's so if there is any class that deserves to gain some other classes neat/unique thing...it's the rogue.

I was gonna say, my ranger can fast move in cities! which I find out. Also we are talking a significant investment into rogue to get this ability which is not a high level ranger ability. I do agree with your end assessment

[Mallore]

There are also other benefits that can be made.. that are more circumstantial as well

Bonus to disguise..

AC bonus against range attacks beyond 30 feet.

Bouns to stealth when its night time?

Cast darkness? representing some sort of bomb...

Reduced Slight of Hand timer on Pick Pocketing.


Hide in shadows 20 could grant concealment 1.

actually why make it compete with hips at all. Hide in Shadows 20, Concealment 1. 25 Concealment 2 and at 30 concealment 3. that be pretty danm good replacement for hips. and be all its own. also you have be Rouge 30, maybe phantom 30 too. Maybe its also not stackable with the epic self concealment feats.

[chad878262]

Bonus to disguise..

Maybe, but that would be something we should be careful about not outstripping Master of Disguises. Perhaps some bonus to give rogues more synergy with the class would be good though... Something like giving a bonus to the skill based on combined MoD and Rogue levels.

AC bonus against range attacks beyond 30 feet.

Ok I suppose, but AC is not really where most rogue builds struggle any more.

Bouns to stealth when its night time?

Already exists in some form hard coded in the engine, or at least the penalty of being no light source exists. Stealth/Detection mechanics are in a delicate balance right now so we are apprehensive about making any further changes to hide/ms/spot/listen.

Cast darkness? representing some sort of bomb...

Or perhaps the new bomb mechanic can be used to make darkness bombs...

Reduced Slight of Hand timer on Pick Pocketing.

I would say this is unlikely.

Hide in shadows 20 could grant concealment 1.

actually why make it compete with hips at all. Hide in Shadows 20, Concealment 1. 25 Concealment 2 and at 30 concealment 3. that be pretty danm good replacement for hips. and be all its own. also you have be Rouge 30, maybe phantom 30 too. Maybe its also not stackable with the epic self concealment feats.

This would be very interesting. If Hide in the Shadows Feat is taken and the PC does not have HiPS than concealment is granted, but if the PC has HiPS it isn't. Would probably have to be applied consistently to avoid taking Assassin 8 at level 30 or something while still getting concealment 1 at R20, but I'm sure something could be worked out. Would not make getting concealment 5 much easier since you don't get 3 until level 30. Possibly you could make a R20/X10 (Monk, WD, or whatever else) that could get concealment 1 at ~23 or 26 and then just take concealment 2, 3, 4 but not sure there would be enough feats to get to 5. Would have to do more theory crafting, but off the top of my head I think this is a great suggestion!

[Mallore]

Maybe, but that would be something we should be careful about not outstripping Master of Disguises. Perhaps some bonus to give rogues more synergy with the class would be good though... Something like giving a bonus to the skill based on combined MoD and Rogue levels.

yeah, im just brainstorming. though honestly there is no reason at all for a rogue to take MoD ever. Look at the builds and just try it. you end up better basically staying pure rogue. that is really the problem for rogues. They only have Assassin prc and SD (which does not synergies at all) sure you can dervish, swashbuckle and duelist, but that is all combat. Not "rogue". You are better off avoiding guild thief too! you come out with an extra feat and SA unless you want to be a merchant. We need more prcs. when was the last time there was one for these little terrors.

Reduced Slight of Hand timer on Pick Pocketing.

I would say this is unlikely.

Slight of hand timer is 30 seconds, its to long already, should be 15 seconds or less. Also with 1/3 attempts auto failing. "kolbold spot you" because of an unfixed bug.. I mean really what is it doing badly to pve balance? and it cant be done to players sooo... you gotta sneak in the first place so your already moving slower. Nothing worse then sneaking over to the next Orc and he pads away as your waiting on the cd.. hoping stupid hips bug doesn't trigger too!

Hide in shadows 20 could grant concealment 1.

actually why make it compete with hips at all. Hide in Shadows 20, Concealment 1. 25 Concealment 2 and at 30 concealment 3. that be pretty danm good replacement for hips. and be all its own. also you have be Rouge 30, maybe phantom 30 too. Maybe its also not stackable with the epic self concealment feats.

This would be very interesting. If Hide in the Shadows Feat is taken and the PC does not have HiPS than concealment is granted, but if the PC has HiPS it isn't. Would probably have to be applied consistently to avoid taking Assassin 8 at level 30 or something while still getting concealment 1 at R20, but I'm sure something could be worked out. Would not make getting concealment 5 much easier since you don't get 3 until level 30. Possibly you could make a R20/X10 (Monk, WD, or whatever else) that could get concealment 1 at ~23 or 26 and then just take concealment 2, 3, 4 but not sure there would be enough feats to get to 5. Would have to do more theory crafting, but off the top of my head I think this is a great suggestion!

[/quote]

Main thought here only Concealment 3 is possible as it wouldn't be able to stack with the regular epic feats. Because it be tied to the feat Hide in Shadows, it be sorta its own thing, so if at level 23 you used your epic feat it couldn't be used to take the next concealment feat. as that too is its own thing.

I rather try the approach of make Hide in Shadows its own thing, then a lesser or equivalent to Hips. ((in my view a Non hips rogue (15 or more rogue levels) will never be viable nor should we try. lets accept they will always need hips make a few new prcs with it, and move on =) ))