Spell: Tenser's Transformation

[K'yon Oblodra]

Hey guys,

I've been playing around with this a bit because I imagined my character to be a wizard capable of fighting with his 2 Hander.

Now I see it has been changed to the PnP version where it doesn't give +1 AB per 2 Caster Levels but 1 AB per Level - your BAB.

Also it doesn't give 20/20/20 for STR/DEX/CON but now gives a +4 to each of these stats. Now I am not sure how it works in PnP as I haven't played that much at all but I'd think the +4 to the stats there would stack with other bonuses.

Could we do this for our Tenser's as well? Or is the attribute bonus not stacking in PnP either?

Considering the short duration of the spell I don't think it would make it too strong, infact as is the spell feels pretty underwhelming but let me know what you think.

Cheers K'yon

[Aspect of Sorrow]

It combined with all the other spells at disposal with a familiar keeping you buffed is probably a little more than overpowering outside of it's current form.

[Blackman D]

its still an enhancement bonus so its not gonna stack with other bonuses

the spell itself has always been highly situational to its use because of the 100% ASF, you cant really escape quick if you get in trouble, but it has been changed to remove the actual transformation keeping you in character form so you can still use items

[Steve]

If you want to escape quick, have a wand of invisibility on your hotbar.

Pretty much, one needs to build for optimal Tenser's use, or not use it at all.

The issue at the moment with arcane gishes is that you can cast Mirror Image then Displacement, and have the D effect on the Mirrors. This fact makes gishes OP and thus any improvements to the general Class will be shot down.

[K'yon Oblodra]

It combined with all the other spells at disposal with a familiar keeping you buffed is probably a little more than overpowering outside of it's current form.

One can have one's familiar buff oneself? I have to admit I didn't even know that was possible.

its still an enhancement bonus so its not gonna stack with other bonuses

Yea it kinda saves you from needing Bulls/Cats/Bears
But yea maybe just something I have to get used to...

the spell itself has always been highly situational to its use because of the 100% ASF, you cant really escape quick if you get in trouble, but it has been changed to remove the actual transformation keeping you in character form so you can still use items

Yea it feels super situational the short duration in combination with a caster usually lacking in anything related offensive fighting capabilities make it feel like a high cost low reward spell also taking into consideration that you often kill a mob then run around to the next all the while it's short duration wastes away XD.

Pretty much, one needs to build for optimal Tenser's use, or not use it at all.

This feels really odd, you'd build towards melee fighting while needing to avoid high BAB classes cause that would basically just lower your gain by tenser's and then there is again the short duration...

Let me know how you'd build for tenser's, not for gish in general please .

The issue at the moment with arcane gishes is that you can cast Mirror Image then Displacement, and have the D effect on the Mirrors. This fact makes gishes OP and thus any improvements to the general Class will be shot down.

I admit that makes the defense of mages pretty damn strong but it's not limited to gishes and it feels like gishes rather lack in offensive power than defensive. Unless you go for deathsinger and combat insight in the epics, but then again you're investing in being able to fight quiet heavily and the spell is kind of useless or at least loses a lot of its potential because you'd build high AB classes like Deathsinger, Eldritch Knight and possibly others.

So in my opinion Tenser's which is not for those that really build gish, again in my opinion is kind of bad at the moment. But yea let me know how you'd see it being used to its full potential

Cheers

[Aspect of Sorrow]

It combined with all the other spells at disposal with a familiar keeping you buffed is probably a little more than overpowering outside of it's current form.

One can have one's familiar buff oneself? I have to admit I didn't even know that was possible.

Easy recast of spells like displacement.

[Blackman D]

familiars can use any touch spell you have memorized, so people use them to bypass penalties like ASF or anything the caster would have

[Steve]

Pretty much, one needs to build for optimal Tenser's use, or not use it at all.

This feels really odd, you'd build towards melee fighting while needing to avoid high BAB classes cause that would basically just lower your gain by tenser's and then there is again the short duration...

Let me know how you'd build for tenser's, not for gish in general please .

The issue at the moment with arcane gishes is that you can cast Mirror Image then Displacement, and have the D effect on the Mirrors. This fact makes gishes OP and thus any improvements to the general Class will be shot down.

I admit that makes the defense of mages pretty damn strong but it's not limited to gishes and it feels like gishes rather lack in offensive power than defensive. Unless you go for deathsinger and combat insight in the epics, but then again you're investing in being able to fight quiet heavily and the spell is kind of useless or at least loses a lot of its potential because you'd build high AB classes like Deathsinger, Eldritch Knight and possibly others.

So in my opinion Tenser's which is not for those that really build gish, again in my opinion is kind of bad at the moment. But yea let me know how you'd see it being used to its full potential

...and an AB bonus equal to your level minus your BAB.

Even if you build a gish with 25 BAB, at Level 30, Tenser's grants +5 AB bonus. Which can be extended easily, granting max 6 minutes of RL time, Tenser'd.

If you build a CL 30, Tenser's would be undispellable, but could be taken by Mord's.

Utilizing Tenser's on my gish—which was built with optimal Tenser's use in mind—his AB in conjunction with IPA (-6 AB) is 42. 42 ab on an nearly defensively impenetrable build, is pretty damn good. Add to the fact a 35 avg. dmg on hit (and 6 attacks per round using Haste), I am confident the build can solo most of the Server. The build has a weak spot, but using magic items intelligently—he is a Wizard-base, after all... —the build can survive.

Now, if only Valefort will listen to me and make the Spellsword PrC...THEN, you'll see some real arse kicking going on.

High DC mages are squishy—melee mages (gishes) are nearly impossible to kill. You don't get everything in one!!

[K'yon Oblodra]

Would you mind sharing your build? If not publicly maybe in a pm?

Maybe also some advice on how you play it

[chad878262]

Steve's point isn't specific to his build regardless if he shares it. The only difference between Tensers and divine power (constantly indicated as a subject of "should be nerfed" discussions) is:
A.) Increases AB instead of BAB. If we made it BAB the unkillable gish would get 1 more attack at highest BAB under haste and 7 total on top of solid damage with IPA.
B.) ASF. A major drawback on paper, but as stated potions and wands along with items can cancel out most of the problems. 99% off the time you won't want to cast anyway as it would waste your melee awesomeness.
C.) Instead of +6 STR you get +4 to all your melee stats. One could argue the +6 STR is better since +1 AB/Damage, but that wouldn't apply to a wiz with high DEX/ INT, so in this case it can help the builds out equally, though the Dec/ INT likely will cast Fox's cunning first

Even with a19 BAB wizard built mostly for casing and a16 STR you have:
19+5 (GMW) +5 (STR) + 4 (G HEROISM) +11 (TENSERS) = 44 (note that with GMW, TENSERS AND G HEROISM YOU HIT THE+20 CAP so haste and any other spells won't help, but w. focus, epic prowess and the like will. This is a serviceable AB, but you might be limited to having only power attack vs IPA. Northlander Hewing isn't great since you'll get only 2 APR, but I haven't done the damage calc...

You can build a DC mage with some fighting prowess, but the rather underwhelming fighting ability you gain is taking away from stuff to make you a better DC caster. There is no way to be a full DC caster with maximum or near max effectiveness while also trying to be a pseudo gish. That's as it should be, casters already make better warriors than fighters when built for it, they shouldn't be competent DC casters too, pick one or accept you'll be less than optimum at both.

[K'yon Oblodra]

Steve's point isn't specific to his build regardless if he shares it. The only difference between Tensers and divine power (constantly indicated as a subject of "should be nerfed" discussions) is:
A.) Increases AB instead of BAB. If we made it BAB the unkillable gish would get 1 more attack at highest BAB under haste and 7 total on top of solid damage with IPA.

Why would he get 7 attacks? If I took a high BAB class to 30 he gets only 5 attacks right? Then we'd add haste for a 6th. Why would the Tenser's use get an extra attack?

Even with a19 BAB wizard built mostly for casing and a16 STR you have:
19+5 (GMW) +5 (STR) + 4 (G HEROISM) +11 (TENSERS) = 44 (note that with GMW, TENSERS AND G HEROISM YOU HIT THE+20 CAP so haste and any other spells won't help, but w. focus, epic prowess and the like will. This is a serviceable AB, but you might be limited to having only power attack vs IPA. Northlander Hewing isn't great since you'll get only 2 APR, but I haven't done the damage calc...

Why BAB 19? Wouldn't 21 be me beneficial due to the extra attack? Also would I want IPA with that AB? It would end at 32 then? Is that good enough? Really just asking cause I haven't ever been that high level.

You can build a DC mage with some fighting prowess, but the rather underwhelming fighting ability you gain is taking away from stuff to make you a better DC caster. There is no way to be a full DC caster with maximum or near max effectiveness while also trying to be a pseudo gish. That's as it should be, casters already make better warriors than fighters when built for it, they shouldn't be competent DC casters too, pick one or accept you'll be less than optimum at both.

I don't want to be cookie cutting too much. I guess my problem is not knowing what is effective late game.

While I know there is a blaster, a DC mage and a gish and also what the rough idea is behind them. I have no idea how they work in more detail.
Like the DC mage, is he really just working with Do or Die spells? I think in our PMs you already mentioned that slightly lower DCs still work for when one chooses the right save spell for the right opponent.

Many other details about the possible ways of building these characters I lack knowledge of. So please don't see this as a try to break the game for my purposes but rather a try to understand... Probably should have posted this in the building section but from my point of view Tenser's felt very clunky.

The point that it doesn't gain one extra attacks is btw a huge point to go for high BAB classes although that reduces the bang for the buck on Tenser's. This is an important point I hadn't understood before this thread .

Thanks for all the lovely help once more guys I think I'll try to build something with what I learned. Chad is you could elaborate on the 19 AB wizard I'd much appreciate it... And a bit random to me

[Tsidkenu]

All classes get an extra attack per 5 BAB past 1st. For a full BAB class like fighter, it looks as follows:

Level New Attack Gained: 1/6/11/16/21/26 = 6 attacks (+1 haste) = 7

Medium BAB class:

Level New Attack Gained: 1/8/15/22/29 = 5 attacks (+1 haste) = 6

Low BAB class:

Level New Attack Gained: 1/12/22 = 3 attacks (+1 haste) = 4

[chad878262]

Why would he get 7 attacks? If I took a high BAB class to 30 he gets only 5 attacks right? Then we'd add haste for a 6th. Why would the Tenser's use get an extra attack?

Point was if we changed Tenser's to increase BAB like Divine Power (which is very unlikely to ever happen) the BAB of the caster would become 30. Anything over BAB25 get's 6 APR, 7 with Haste. As it is now, if the caster has a BAB of 21-25 they get an Attack bonus buff = to 30-their BAB (subject to the cap of 20), so they still only have 5 APR, 6 with Haste. Therefore a Hasted, Tenser's mage has about the same benefit as a Cleric with Divine Power...issue being a Favored Soul gets 9 minutes of Haste per rest and anyone can have a wand or items to provide the haste effect, but only for 1 minute at a time.

Why BAB 19? Wouldn't 21 be me beneficial due to the extra attack? Also would I want IPA with that AB? It would end at 32 then? Is that good enough? Really just asking cause I haven't ever been that high level.

19 was just a random example that you can get by mixing a small amount of EK or DS in to an otherwise caster based Wizard. If you are hitting BAB21 you are not mostly a caster, you are a gish. For example, if you went with 3 full caster classes and 10 levels of EK (or Deathsinger) your max BAB is 20, assuming all 3 caster classes have even levels... W11/AM4/ASoC5/EK10 would only reach BAB19, for example. 21, in my opinion is not a good place to end up as a Gish since your total Attack bonus is just going to be pretty awful, which won't allow you to use IPA and still land hits. You should either aim for at least 23 BAB (25 is better) or just drop the thought of being a gish and focus on really high DC's. In my opinion of course! As I said in my response, Power Attack could be useful, but IPA with the -6 to Attack is probably too much against many epic mobs. Of course you could still use it when you are able to land hits and switch back to PA when you are not landing hits...

I don't want to be cookie cutting too much. I guess my problem is not knowing what is effective late game.

While I know there is a blaster, a DC mage and a gish and also what the rough idea is behind them. I have no idea how they work in more detail.
Like the DC mage, is he really just working with Do or Die spells? I think in our PMs you already mentioned that slightly lower DCs still work for when one chooses the right save spell for the right opponent.

Many other details about the possible ways of building these characters I lack knowledge of. So please don't see this as a try to break the game for my purposes but rather a try to understand... Probably should have posted this in the building section but from my point of view Tenser's felt very clunky.

The point that it doesn't gain one extra attacks is btw a huge point to go for high BAB classes although that reduces the bang for the buck on Tenser's. This is an important point I hadn't understood before this thread .

Thanks for all the lovely help once more guys I think I'll try to build something with what I learned. Chad is you could elaborate on the 19 AB wizard I'd much appreciate it... And a bit random to me

This is why I recommended Deathsinger in my PM with a Rapier focusing on DEX and INT over Strength. With a Strength based Gish you need STR to be as high as possible for AB and damage, usually wanting to end up with at least 22, 26 with bulls. More is better... You also need 12 or 13 DEX (Mithral Full Plate), 8 DEX (Regular Full Plate) or 14 DEX (Mithral Chain Mail)... On top of this you have low HP so you don't want to dump CON, from an RP perspective you may or may not be ok dumping CHA or WIS, but you kind of have to because you need a minimum of 16 INT with +3/4 item to cast level 9 spells. Of course if you want decent DC's having 20 INT be your max is simply not going to work. Going DEX/INT based addresses this since you can get DEX up to 14, 16 or 18 (Mithral Chain Mail, Mithral BP, or Mithral Chain shirt with Cat's Grace, though I recommend the Chain shirt so you get effective AB). Next You can get INT to 26 (30 w/ Fox's Cunning or INT helm +4) which for Death Singer with Combat Insight gives +10 damage, +5 AC as well as +10 on your DCs. This is where you won't reach 40 + DC's of a 'true caster', but you will likely be able to reach 35 or so. Against an epic melee enemy a fortitude save against DC 35 is likely to have somewhere north of 85% success rate, so you are basically wasting spells. However, caster mobs are rarely protected with save increasing spells so may have fortitude saves ~15 - 20, giving you a very good chance of success. So basically if you use spells with a Will save against enemies with weak Will saves and Fortitude spells against enemies with weak Fort saves you are likely to have pretty decent success in PvE.

As I said, you are still going to be somewhat disappointed as getting Archmage and DeathSinger is extremely feat starved and thus it will be a struggle. Finally, just to reiterate, the 19 BAB was based on my understanding of best case scenario with your current build plan.

[K'yon Oblodra]

One of my dear items is a two-hander and it's kind of a trademark of K'yon although I want to change its look not digging the Katana look it has atm.

That's the reason I am not going the Dex route. Regarding the armor... Is that really necessary for a gish type?

I am thinking about dropping ASoC it seems to grant me little, if I would go a hybrid route between DC and gish whichever way the balance will look like it doesn't really do much for me, although I do like the empowered flame arrows .

Mechanically speaking the Archmage feels actually even more useless although I really wanted that arcane fire thingy... Think I'll have "the Conjurer" show it to me ingame before I make a decision.

Would EK/DS grant me 25 BAB? If I maxed on them or would I possibly not even need to go 10/10 on them?

Really considering all kinds of changes XD

[Steve]

Would you mind sharing your build? If not publicly maybe in a pm?

Maybe also some advice on how you play it

The build structure is: Wizard (7), Eldritch Knight (10), Dragonslayer (10), Cleric (3; War & Law domain). BAB 25 with decent saves all around. Negative is CL 25 w/ PSC and no Evasion. Takes IKD and IPA and Automatic Still Spell 0–9 (in Epics). He also picks up an Epic Spell.

I'm taking a gamble on MrM3ntalist's statements that CL 25 in the new "reduced Dispel mobs world," is perfectly fine. We'll see if he is right, or I am!!!

But, I've also prepared for the Dispel issue by having almost all +4 stat gear, and thus being dispelled will only reduce the build's effectiveness to 90% of optimum.

I play it like a Fighter, actually. Or even a Fighter-Cleric, to be honest. Buff up, and kill everything. Sure, it can become tedious to only see half the damage a dedicated fighter or rogue or bard or barbarian do, but over time, my build will get the job done. And I know that the build can tank pretty much every situation, which always makes EVERYONE ELSE super happy! See how nice of a guy I am??!!

You can actually take my setup of a build, and make it better, if you min/max and optimize here and there. But my build is made off of a specific Character Background idea, and I like a challenge to have build-in weaknesses, which I have to learn to overcome through the Leveling process.

Overall, Chad explains rather well the situation behind Tenser's being useful, and also why it is better balanced than Divine Power is. But we all already know—or should know...—that the Cleric or Favored Soul is really a powerhouse, and as long as those Buffs are up, those builds are wicked difficult to kill (or die with).

From a personal experience point, what I find most difficult with gishes is finding the "right" gear, because they can utilize normal Enchanted gear for Abilities, but it is also very helpful to have spell slots, and tings like extra damage, etc. Getting gear with all the right or best components, takes time. So that, in a way, is another challenge...which is fun, right? RIGHT?!?!