Abolish Read Magic DC 20 Spellcraft Check

[Tsidkenu]

I'm going to raise this specific issue again since it has been unresolved since I first raised it ~1 year ago.

The new Study Spell mechanic needs to have the DC 20 Spellcraft check for reading a scroll removed because it unfairly punishes low level wizards. There is no Read Magic cantrip to circumvent it, meaning new wizard players need to take a gamble (literally, because buying scrolls costs gp) every time they want to learn a new (and perhaps vital) spell. The DC 15 + Spell Level scribal check is fine, that can stay. But I think it is hard for a 1st level wizard to also be asked to succeed a DC 20 read magic check as well. Please remove it or else add Read Magic as a cantrip which can be used to bypass that particular check.

[Glowfire]

Agreed.

[Nyeleni]

Absolutely agree on this. It punishes new players who chose wizard to begin playing.

Almost having no gold and failing on scribing scrolls is a bad combination.

[Blackman D]

*supplies pitch forks and molotov cocktails to get the riot goin, then whistles innocently from the sideline*

[Steve]

Devil's Advocate summoned by BMD:

"But my dears...does not a young Wizard inherently pay a gamble in their days of inexperience, as they try to enhance their spellbook with greater powers, powers they often themselves know little about but, through the challenge of experimentation, finally—if the Gods be willing—manage to succeed, through a form of trial and error, that at times, does end up in relative, as well costly, failure?!?"

The Devil's Advocate throws out a wide, silver tooth laden grin:

"Why not go so far as to say that all magics should be provided as if common, and that a young mageling but visit his most common merchant provider in order to unleash such sacred spells that characterize the Art...thus, belittling all those mortals that have struggled to achieve what only the Gods were made to grasp?!?"

The Devil's Advocate crosses his arms, and stares with flaming eyes....

I offer a serious suggestion:

Replace the DC 20 with a DC 10 + Spell Level (of what is on the scroll in CL!!). That makes it both easier, but also more varied, depending on the scroll CL the wizard has found/acquired.

DC 10 is, according to the D&D Rules on it:

Check
Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

So what is currently in place, really isn't that hard: a magic decifering check, for magic written down in form by another wizard...and weren't wizards actually usually protecting their magic from others?

[CrimsonMist]

Replace the DC 20 with a DC 10 + Spell Level (of what is on the scroll in CL!!). That makes it both easier, but also more varied, depending on the scroll CL the wizard has found/acquired

I think Tsidkenu was proposing the Scribe Scroll check to remain in and that already works this way. The problem is that there are two checks:

• DC 20 Spellcraft to read the scroll (which AFAIK isn't implemented for e.g. casting spells from scrolls)
• DC(15+spell level) to then add the scroll to the spell book.

So there are two chances to fail for every spell, usually at a time when every GP counts.

[Tsidkenu]

Indeed.

The DC 15 + Spell Level scribal check is fine, that can stay.

Or how about we really kick up a stink and demand UMDers to roll DC 20 spellcraft to read a scroll too before they make their UMD check to actually use it.

Yeah. Didn't think so.

[Blackman D]

well UMD already does have two DCs - if your skill is too low the scroll stays red, so there is your read DC, and then the check to actually use it

[Steve]

Yes, I read correctly the OP.

But I guess I see it as Reading a scroll by another mage, is actually, fairly, a challenge. Scribing as well, is a challenge. Both should not be automatic feats...unless there was a Specialty Feat created to make it such!

As well, the Read Magic cantrip, appears to be more for reading the magical inscriptions of things, which is why it deciphers Glyphs of Warding, etc. It doesn't imply—at least in the linked text—that it allows one to transcribe a scroll into their spellbook.

I mean...essentially this:

Spellcraft Check: 15 + spell level = Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll (wizard only). No retry for that spell until you gain at least 1 rank in Spellcraft (even if you find another source to try to learn the spell from). Requires 8 hours.

20 + spell level = Decipher a written spell (such as a scroll) without using read magic. One try per day. Requires a full-round action.

[Tsidkenu]

Yet Read Magic is such an important cantrip for mages that every mage knows how to prepare the spell without even having a spell book.

There is no justification for a DC 20 Read Magic Check (which is supposed to apply for those rare emergency occasions when a wizard has used up their daily preparations of Read Magic!!!) when our server doesn't have the Read Magic cantrip to bypass it, which is the core of this problem for a level 1 apprentice just trying to get by.

[Edit] Oh, and because you'll just ask anyway: pp 178-179 of the Players Handbook. Spells copied from a scroll or another spell book must be deciphered first, either by making a DC 20 spellcraft check, or by casting the cantrip Read Magic...

[Steve]

But...Study Spell is not just a reading action, it is a transcribing action!

[mrm3ntalist]

Mechanically, this is a non issue. The DC is too low.

[Tsidkenu]

The maximum possible spellcraft score for a level 1 mage is

Human: Base Skill 4, Int Mod +6 [18 base, +4 fox's cunning potion], Level 1 Feat Skill Focus: Spellcraft +3, Level 1 Bonus Feat: Courteous Magocracy +2; Scroll of Heroism +2 (because Gtr. Heroism is out of price range) = 17.

Said character needs to roll 3 or higher to succeed the check (10% failure rate). This decreases by 5% per level after 1st.

However, who is going to waste their 1st level feats on Skill Focus Spellcraft and Courteous Magocracy? So eliminating those from the equation an average level 1 wizard has a 35% failure rate for deciphering scrolls, assuming they've the impetus to use Fox's Cunning & Heroism to boost their chances.

That is not an insignificant mechanical non-issue. Sure, by level 4-5 it is insignificant. But not every low level wizard can just get Greater Gloves of Spellcraft at a whim. Not every low level wizard can have +8 skill from a 27+ friendly bardsong. Not every low level wizard can afford the expense, not only of buying their spell scrolls, but also buying all the preparatory boosters to get their spellcraft score up. My suggestion is for quality of life for new players who might otherwise get dismayed by this unnecessary system we have concocted, especially when it is entirely circumvented in PnP by a cantrip every single wizard has at their disposal.

A DC 20 spellcraft check -is- significant at a time when new players can very easily get exasperated and simply give up and quit. I want to avoid that; I want new players to like what we have and enjoy their path towards progress. This seems like a step in the right direction. Low level wizards are already difficult. Why do we make it harder?

[mrm3ntalist]

The maximum possible spellcraft score for a level 1 mage is

Human: Base Skill 4, Int Mod +6 [18 base, +4 fox's cunning potion], Level 1 Feat Skill Focus: Spellcraft +3, Level 1 Bonus Feat: Courteous Magrcracy +2; Scroll of Heroism +2 (because Gtr. Heroism is out of price range) = 17.

Said character needs to roll 3 or higher to succeed the check (10% failure rate). This decreases by 5% per level after 1st.

However, who is going to waste their 1st level feats on Skill Focus Spellcraft and Courteous Magocracy? So eliminating those from the equation an average level 1 wizard has a 35% failure rate for deciphering scrolls, assuming they've the impetus to use Fox's Cunning & Heroism to boost their chances.

That is not an insignificant mechanical non-issue. Sure, by level 4-5 it is. But not every low level wizard can just get Greater Gloves of Spellcraft at a whim. Not every low level wizard can have +8 skill from a 27+ friendly bardsong. Not every low level wizard can afford the expense, not only of buying their spell scrolls, but also buying all the preparatory boosters to get their spellcraft score up. My suggestion is for quality of life for new players who might otherwise get dismayed by this unnecessary system we have concocted, especially when it is entirely circumvented in PnP by a cantrip every single wizard has at their disposal.

A DC 20 spellcraft check -is- significant at a time when new players can very easily get exasperated and simply give up and quit. I want to avoid that; I want new players to like what we have and enjoy their path towards progress. This seems like a step in the right direction. Low level wizards are already difficult. Why do we make it harder?

In my opinion this is an exaggeration.

- Items can be used to increase spell craft further
- The wizard spell slots at lvl1 are far less than the spells a wizard gets to learn.
- the cost of these spells at lvl1 are very low.
- Players are going to quit because at lvl1 they wont be able to memorize additional spells??? Really? This is hardly a challenge. There are far more challenging issues for an inexperienced wizard player than this.
- This has been in game for one-and-a-half years now. There were 0 complaints. At worst this is a minor challenge, where inexperienced players can begin to understand certain mechanics. Minor as in SIMS level of challenge.

Mechanically, this is hardly an issue that requires to be discussed further. If anything, if we want to provide some form of challenge the DC should scale in higher levels.

[Hoihe]

Oh I complained plenty of it on IRC. So not 0 complaints .