How to Phantom?

[RaiderOne]

So I would like to play a ninja-esque character and I am looking at the phantom class but cant help but feel that it has all the problems a pure monk does but just never quite gets there. Does anyone have any experience using this class? Is HiPS required on this server? Am I better playing a straight or multiclass rogue? help appreciated!

[chad878262]

Phantom can work well with smart use of ki (invisibility) to land your sneak attacks. P25/SD5 is the best IMO since you can get all the key rogue abilities (HiPS, Epic Precision, Epic Dodge) to make a solid PTWF build. The edge it has on Rogue is the ability to go invisible allowing to attack out of stealth, go invisible after the first flurry, attack again, go HiPS after the first flurry, rinse and repeat. Obviously can't do this indefinitely, but can really help against difficult/boss level foes. Like any stealth build it is a bit difficult getting started.

My personal opinion is that HiPS is not required for certain types of stealth builds, but for a Phantom I personally don't think I would go any other way, but P25/SD5. However, there are those that would go P22/A8 and forego epic dodge, which can work as well since it isn't strictly required, IMO it does help a lot though.

[aaron22]

pretty new class to the server. some really like it and seems others are less fond. i would lean toward HiPS being fairly needed. chad is working a build right now that is utilizing the rogue hide in shadows. not sure, but curious, how that is working so far. rogue/sin/IB builds are really solid. i had a rough time with my phantom build. im not a good rogue player though. going P25/SD5 is the way to go though from what i can see. pure rogue is a little less than to be desired. but that really depends on how well chad can use the hide in shadows feat. he is a good rogue player.

[chad878262]

My schedule doesn't allow playing that often and I split time amongst my established characters and the PC that doesn't get HiPS. He is currently level 7 so he just got HiTS and I haven't played since gaining it. Hopefully we will play a bit on Friday and we'll see if it is working for him. Note though that HiTS is awfully weak when you first get it and doesn't become instant until R21. So at low-to-mid levels the lack of HiPS is going to be painful if you don't have a party.

Of course all this is moot in a conversation about the Phantom class, since HiTS is a Rogue only feat.

[Theodore01]

HiTS works well overall so far, if you use it in a shadowy environment. (That is not always easy to guess). My char. is lv17, but only 9 rogue levels.

[Nemni]

I think the phantom really suffers from their lack of UMD. The often suggested build P25/SD5 does not get it either.

[chad878262]

any class can cross-class UMD to ~11 points or so. Phantom gets enough skill points that I would certainly spend the ~22 points to get it there without wasting a feat on able learner and be fine with it.

That said Rogue is a superior class in my opinion, the only benefit making Phantom a consideration is the ability to land sneaks and go back invisible without retaliation, and as I said that is limited uses.

[RaiderOne]

Comparing it to the rogue you get less skill points (2), less skill choices (UMD), you get basic avoidance abilities such as evasion much later, and lose access to the rogues bonus feats, in exchange for going invisible a bit?

The unarmoured and WIS AC bonus is nice but then you have to put points in wisdom compared to INT lowering your potential skills or arcane spellcasting ability (should you want it). It is optional but you don't benefit from these abilities without the WIS.

You also have to invest a ton of levels to get anything. I guess i just keep looking at the class and wondering where all my options have gone.

[Deathgrowl]

it has all the problems a pure monk does

What are those?

[chad878262]

Comparing it to the rogue you get less skill points (2), less skill choices (UMD), you get basic avoidance abilities such as evasion much later, and lose access to the rogues bonus feats, in exchange for going invisible a bit?

P25/SD5 gets 25 uses per day. At level 10 you can go ethereal instead of invisible. Either case it's instantly activated so as i said you can essentially take on tough enemies by rotation of hips and ghost step, basically never having any risk of getting attacked. Flurry - hips - flurry - ghost step - flurry - hips. It's very powerful due to being instantly activated. Throw in greater ki dodge at 18 and ethereal jaunt at 20 and they have some very powerful abilities. Rogue can get these with items or consumables, but instantly activated can save your pc's life.

None of this is to say phantom is better than rogue. I would argue pure phantom is better than pure rogue, but for a competent player with a competent build there are many r16/x/x/x builds that are better overall than p25/sd5.

[mrm3ntalist]

The ninja class is not a class i like because like RaiderOne said, it is a limited combination of monk and rogue. Unfortunately, it wont be fair for those class if phantom was as good, but definetely, this base class needs to be looked at.

As far as builds are concerned, the only one i would play is a Phantom25/SD5.

[Deathgrowl]

I know someone who played phantom21/assassin9 to decent effect.

[mrm3ntalist]

I know someone who played phantom21/assassin9 to decent effect.

Yes you are right. Many phantom builds are playable. It feels like an incomplete class though, an icomplete rogue and incomplete monk. Like you said, the class is far from unplayable.

[RaiderOne]

The ninja class is not a class i like because like RaiderOne said, it is a limited combination of monk and rogue. Unfortunately, it wont be fair for those class if phantom was as good, but definetely, this base class needs to be looked at.

Would this be possible for a group to do and have those changes accepted on the server? I have plenty of ideas about what this class should be and what it should not.

[chad878262]

You're welcome to open a suggestion thread with what you feel should be done to Phantom class or PM QC and we'll open a thread in our forums to discuss it. I do think there are a few things we could do for the class that would still keep it balanced while not taking anything away from Rogues and/or Monks, but I think we should be careful about giving too much since as I said there are certain things the Phantom does quite well and can be even better than rogue.