Phantom

[RaiderOne]

A few of us have recently discussed the Phantom class in another thread and I was told I could post my thoughts, ideas, and inspirations, on how this class could be improved.

Now improved does not always mean that it is more powerful, but more synergistic with the way the rest of the classes work within the confines of NWN2.

In a nutshell the Phantom is a modified version of Kaedrin’s Ninja, which is based off the ninja found in the 3.5 edition of complete adventurer.

The complete adventurer ninja is a rogue variant that sacrifices some rogue elements for others. The implementation Kaedrin has done is pretty faithful to the original material. However, many of the abilities the original has are based on mechanics that are either not found within the game engine, or are not that well implemented.

For instance, the Acrobatics ability grants a skill bonus to climb, jump, and tumble. The NWN2 version only has tumble. Add in that this skill bonus does not affect your dodge AC bonus and that you were planning to take 30 tumble anyways, it’s an ability that was no effect outside of a RP’d tumble check.

The ninja class sacrifices things such as skill points to gain these abilities, which as you can see have little relevance in NWN2.

I don’t propose to make the class closer to the original ninja. It’s not a great class outside of a pnp environment, and the standard rogue more than fills any variant you might want in the game.

My goals for the proposed changes to this class are as follows;
1. Primarily a rogue variant in the same way as sorcerer is to wizard
2. Is on the same power level as the rogue
3. Has similar multiclass capability to the rogue and monk.


Base Features
Hit die : d6
Base Attack Bonus progression : Medium
Saving throws :
High = Reflex
low = Fortitude, Will
Proficiencies :
Weapons: Simple, Rogue, Monk
Armour: None.
Skill Points : ( 8 + Int modifier ) ×4 at 1st Character level.
Class Skills : Appraise, Bluff, Craft (alchemy, trap, weapon), Diplomacy, Disguise, Disable Device, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Lore: Local, Lore: Arcana , Lore: Local, Move Silently, Open Lock, Parry, Search, Sense Motive, Set Trap, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Taunt, Tumble, and Use Magic Device.


Class Progression

Level Features Gained
1 Ki Power, Unarmoured AC Bonus (As Monk), Improved Unarmed Strike
2 Sneak Attack +1d6, Evasion
3 Ghost Strike, Poison Use
4 Uncanny Dodge
5 Sneak Attack +2d6
6 Ghost Step (Invisible)
7 Hide in the Shadows
8 Sneak Attack +3d6, Improved Uncanny Dodge
9 Ki Dodge
10 Improved Evasion
11 Sneak Attack +4d6
12 Ghost Step (Ethereal)
13 Slippery Mind
14 Sneak Attack +5d6
15 Deflect Arrows
16 Ghost Sight
17 Sneak Attack +6d6
18 Greater Ki Dodge
19
20 Sneak Attack +7d6, Ki Step
21
22 Bonus Epic Feat
23 Sneak Attack +8d6
24
25 Bonus Epic Feat
26 Sneak Attack +9d6
27
28 Bonus Epic Feat
29 Sneak Attack +10d6
30


Vs Rogue
Gain
Monk Weapons (thematic)
Improved Unarmed Strike (thematic)
Ki Powers (Dodge, Sight, etc)
Unarmoured AC bonus

Lose
Light Armour
Trapfinding (rogue specialty)
Trap Sense
1/3 Sneak Attack progression
Some rogue bonus feat customisation, most notably no crippling strike (rogue specialty)



Other thoughts and ideas
(the pnp version) Ki Power should be ½ CL + Wis modifier – no idea which this should use without testing. I would imagine that due to the combat heavy nature of the game and multiclass viability it should stay at 1 per level.

Ghost step duration should be 2 round + wisdom modifier (min 2) (encourages wisdom use)

Poisons could do with looking at as the DCs for most are not great. This is not just an issue for this class (assassin, blackguard, etc). It would be also cool to make your own poisons from exotic animal/plants.

Moving ghost strike early makes this class more appealing to martial characters and prevents taking minimum levels for some combat target breaking (invisible).

Ghost strike should probably allow the attacker to bypass basic DR/immunities (maybe level based like the monk fist?) due to the class not getting the ability to bypass sneak immunity.

I think this class is very much like the rogue but with its own unique aspects (see Wizard vs. Sorcerer). I could see some characters choosing this over the rogue for its abilities but others may favour the increased sneak attack power or feat choices the rogue offers. I’ve tried to spread the abilities like the rogue and monk, giving core class things early on and saving some of the tastier abilities till much later. All of its main abilities are pre 21, just like the other base classes.

I've left the skills at 8 because this class wants Wis over Int and will end up with less than the rogue that way, but is just as hungry for the points.

Thoughts and comments?

[chad878262]

This would be a pretty severe nerf and no one would likely play a sneak attack based class that can't get epic precision.

[NeOmega]

i like it. but maybe keep crippling strike in exchange for 1/4 sneak attack. i dunno, i really want them to have exotic weapon ability more than anything. the lore says the ways come from the east, but instead they get martial weapons, (wha?)

so maybe trade light armor and martial weapons for exotic weapons?

i also would love unarmed strike, so trade that for the 1/2 to 1/3 sneak progression?

[RaiderOne]

Before epic levels existed everyone played a sneak attack character without epic precision

It's not meant to be the rogue but its own thing. If you want to be master sneak attack play the rogue.

If epic precision is required that maybe an issue with too many sneak immunes on the server than this class. But we could drop it's sneak progression to give it precision without adding crippling strike. But I am loath to add abilities to classes in the epic levels as it is multiclass unfriendly.

With the proficiencies as is you only miss out on the katana for free.

[chad878262]

The changes I see, let me know if I missed anything:

Improvements:
+2 SP / level to be equal with rogue
Added Appraise, Lore: Local, Parry, Sense Motive, Set Trap, Taunt, and UMD
Increased Unarmored AC bonus to +1 AC every 5 levels (as monk) instead of every 10
Added Improved Unarmed Strike
Moved Evasion to level 2 (from 12)
Moved Ghost Strike to 3 (from 8)
Granted Uncanny Dodge (at 4)
Granted Hide in the Shadows (at 7)
Granted Improved Uncanny Dodge (at 8)
Moved Improved Evasion from 24 down to 10
Moved Ghost Walk to 12 (from 20)
Granted free Slippery Mind (at 13)
Granted Deflect Arrows (at 15)

What you took away:
Crippling Strike
5d6 sneak attack dice
moved Ghost Step to 6 (from 2)
Concentration

What you have done here which I don't like is made it a very good dip class, making anyone who would take Monk chose Phantom instead. The only thing a monk gets as a dip that Phantom doesn't is flurry of blows and many dips aren't going for that since it only works with fists or monk weapons. This is basically a monk that gets all the rogue goodies at low levels. And is also the reason we made Evasion come later and Improved Evasion come much later. In addition, anyone who would currently dip Rogue would instead dip Phantom. Rogue dips are not going after 2d6 sneak dice, they are going after evasion, tumble and UMD. You are giving all of that plus WIS to AC, Improved Unarmed Strke, Poison Use and Ghost Strike. It is too much in the first 3 levels even though you at least took away turning invisible for 3 rounds from level 2. Issue is no one cares about the invisibility for a dip class where they are not building for sneak attacks.

I would not be in favor of giving an even better Evasion dip then what already exists. I also do not agree with adding Appraise and Taunt to the skill list, but the others do make some sense.

As to Hide in the Shadows addition - You do realize that it requires 21 levels of Rogue before it becomes instant, thus if your goal is to allow more multi-classing granting Hide in the Shadows does the opposite. It was granted to Rogues as a way to not require taking SD or Assassin, but Phantom already has that with Ghost Step. Not sure I see the reasoning behind the addition.

I personally think it need more rogue in it and less monk. As to the server having too many crit immunes that discussion has been had many times, but end of the day players don't want to be limited in where they can go and without sneak damage such a build has no damage...Thus without Epic Precision there are a few area's in CR21+ where they just can't be effective. When you consider there are only 5 CR25+ area's having 1 or 2 consist of crit immune creatures means you have 3 end game area's you can effectively explore, 2 of those are brutally difficult for solo characters, and this is not exactly a powerbuild. So there is effectively 1 CR25+ area where you can be effective as a sneak attack character who doesn't have epic precision.

I would recommend you play through the server with a sneak attack based character (either Phantom or Rogue or some multi-class that has high sneak attack damage) in to at least mid-epics and then come back with suggestions based on that. As it stands your recommendation is giving too much as a dip and taking too much away as a single class.

[RaiderOne]

Perfect criticism

I wrote this mostly in about 3 hours and yeah its not a perfect spread and nothings ever right first try.

I've not played any of the epic server content but if its as bad as you say then epic precision and by extension crippling strike are mandatory and not an option. Its one of the reasons why dnd 5e has nothing that's immune to sneak attack or critical hits. It makes a core class useless in many circumstances, but then you only get to do sneak damage once per round.

I will have a think about it and come back and tidy some of it up.

[aaron22]

how about keeping just as it is but give it a feat at level 16,18 or 20 that opens daring outlaw in the epics?

[chad878262]

how about keeping just as it is but give it a feat at level 16,18 or 20 that opens daring outlaw in the epics?

We don't have daring outlaw and in previous discussions it has always been turned down, even when suggesting a nerfed version of the feat. I doubt Darling Outlaw will ever get approval to add here, but that's just my opinion and I could of course be wrong.

[aaron22]

how about keeping just as it is but give it a feat at level 16,18 or 20 that opens daring outlaw in the epics?

We don't have daring outlaw and in previous discussions it has always been turned down, even when suggesting a nerfed version of the feat. I doubt Darling Outlaw will ever get approval to add here, but that's just my opinion and I could of course be wrong.

it would make the class a lot more appealing. No?

[Blame The Rogue]

Before epic levels existed everyone played a sneak attack character without epic precision

It's not meant to be the rogue but its own thing. If you want to be master sneak attack play the rogue.

If epic precision is required that maybe an issue with too many sneak immunes on the server than this class. But we could drop it's sneak progression to give it precision without adding crippling strike. But I am loath to add abilities to classes in the epic levels as it is multiclass unfriendly.

With the proficiencies as is you only miss out on the katana for free.

sadly, with the way things are coded, if you make a mob immune to crits, it also makes them immune to sneaks. this has always made giving mobs said immunities, to make the server balanced, a challenge

[RaiderOne]

sadly, with the way things are coded, if you make a mob immune to crits, it also makes them immune to sneaks. this has always made giving mobs said immunities, to make the server balanced, a challenge

Just an idea but you could just give epic precision to all sneak attackers for free but add more sneak immunity to some of the monsters such as bosses to compensate. Basically reduced sneak damage vs x targets as opposed to total immunity or not. Its not a perfect work around but at least you can then use sneak on everything and are not forced into a feat tree for sneak classes to function.

[chad878262]

We would not want to do that. Would empower classes like Ranger/Assassin and other non-rogue sneaks that don't need any help. In some cases not having Epic Precision is something that keeps certain builds in check. Giving them an extra ~9-18 average damage per first flurry attack out of HiPS or Feint would likely result in nerfs elsewhere. Best not to empower one thing and then have to depower it somewhere else as it can become a constant back and forth.

Epic Precision is fine as it is, and we gave Phantom Crippling Strike for the specific reason that without it the class doesn't work. As I've said elsewhere Phantom is relatively close to Rogue, though a bit weaker overall if the rogue is optimized. However, P25/SD5 requires very little builder skill and is pretty tough to 'mess up' so long as you know the key feats you are going for (PTWF, Epic Dodge, Epic Precision and Expose Weakness). Honestly because it is easy to build I would say Phantom is stronger than most rogue builds because they are generally built toward RP and not optimized for max efficiency. Phantom being newbie friendly as far as building goes makes for a viable character even if you take a couple of feats that are relatively useless.

Also (and I know I sound like a broken record here), but the ability to essentially have 50 rounds of constantly going between HiPS to Ghost Step is ridiculously powerful. You can be in some boss fights and never have them target you because you simply disappear after the first flurry of sneak attacks. This is also why some advocate for P21/A9. Gets one more sneak dice overall as well as Assassin Death attack and spells, in exchange for Improved Evasion and Epic Dodge. However, it also saves 2 feats pre-epic (dodge/mobility required for SD) and when you really need Epic Dodge you can use Ghost Step before an enemy ever targets you.

Point being, yes it can use a minor tweak here or there, but I think the best bet is to think small as the class is not bad at all.

To actually add to the conversation I will throw something out there...

Could lower Improved Evasion from level 24 to level 20, which would allow for a bit more multi-classing such as P20/SD3/WS7 for a sort of "Nature Ninja" Just an example, but point being would allow Phantom to still get a little bit of additional multi-classing while obtaining Epic Dodge.

Another idea would be to make Ghost Step turn in to Improved Invisibility at level 18 so that instead of Greater Ki Dodge, they can use one Ki to essentially do both, go invisible, sneak attack and you still have ~2.5 rounds of 50% concealment.

One final idea, which I don't think is possible, but would be nice, is to give them something akin to Flurry of Blows (but not Improved or Greater Flurry), maybe at level 8 or 9. However, it should work with any finesse weapon instead of only monk weapons (that's the part that I don't think is possible). One extra attack at -2 penalty would give them a little more 'monk' without making them as good as a monk at it.

[NeOmega]

The changes I see, let me know if I missed anything:
.

you missed replacing martial weapons with monk weapons.

how about limiting it to simple weapons, monk weapons + swords?

[chad878262]

wiki says they get simple, rogue and monk as does the OP. Where is Martial listed?

[NeOmega]

wiki says they get simple, rogue and monk as does the OP. Where is Martial listed?

in the game it says martial weapons when creating the character. It only makes sense if you notice many of the descriptions and skills were copied from ghost faced killer. In fact, as i was working on a phantom, i noticed the skills listed are way off... they are the gfk skillset. Phantom gets a lot more.