Turn Undead became less useful (?)

luminus · Unread post by **luminus** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:14 am

I finally figured out why at higher levels I seem to turn even less undead than before. At level 16-17 I was able to run around at the fields of the dead, and turn/paralyze 3 to 4 undead with each use of the turn undead ability. These days Saul is like 6 levels higher, even has all the 10 Morninglord levels, but I'm barely able to turn two undead.

The upscaling thing on maps, or whatever it is called, throws a spanner in the works I think. Even after investing in like all the feats and ways to have a nice turn undead chance, these efforts shrink into insignificance compared to the upscaling.

Today I tested it and indeed. Running around alone at the Field of the Dead, undeads with up to 24hd (!) spawn,... whereas I'm usually able to turn like 41-43 hd or something. So that means I'm sometimes able to turn only one single undead. And that with a level 22 toon, which has sun domain, 10 morninglord levels and several other feats to assist in the roll.
Pointless it feels now.

Or am I wrong?

chad878262 · Unread post by **chad878262** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:33 am

24hd undead should not be spawning. Cap for solo is an increase of 2 hd which would bring them from 14 up to 16... The occasional sub boss script could be responsible but even that seems strange to spawn a boss 10 cr higher than the area. Might be a bug, but dedude would need to check to be certain.

luminus · Unread post by **luminus** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:08 am

Maybe I have no idea what these numbers mean (see screenies), maybe you can help me explain what they mean

But I stick to my statement. At 6 levels lower and several months ago, it was way easier to turn undead than it is now. He's not even able to destroy them, the few he can turn are merely paralyzed.

encounter 1 : one undead priest
encounter 2 : one undead mage
encounter 3 : another single undead mage

chad878262 · Unread post by **chad878262** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:56 am

In all three screens you turned a 15hd enemy. BMD can explain turning mechanic Better than me, but i find it hard top believe you were turning more undead at 6 levels lower several months ago. Basically there are 2 rolls for then undead, the first is for highest level effected and the second is number of hit dice you can turn. With mac hit dice rolls of 33-39 you could turn up to 2 15hd undead (30 hd total). In order to destroy undead you must have twice the levels as their hit dice. Based on the screen shots i don't believe the dynamic spawns is causing any issue with turn undead. In this case the enemy hd is only 1 or 2 higher.

luminus · Unread post by **luminus** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:46 am

I'm positive I was able to turn 3 undead then, paralyzing them. Now it's only 2 if I'm lucky. I thought it would be slightly more powerful having all those feats and class levels too.
May it gets better? I don't know, but perhaps 'BMD' (?) can explain it all better then

luminus · Unread post by **luminus** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:11 am

To say how weak my turn undead toon feels, here I got kicked back out of the first room inside the Vault where Saul met a single Morhg Avenger. Saul was fully buffed and had an (buffed) Astral Deva with him along. I remember at level 20 this seemed less of a problem.
Now I was totally unable to turn the creature, and after 5-6 attempts or so I gave up. I was also barely able to scratch it even when hitting. When a second one of those showed up, I even had to make a run for it, regenerate on and everything.
Perhaps it's better if I just convert/rcr him to an almost pure paladin after all, like voices are telling me to. http://nwn2db.com/build/?270568

Theodore01 · Unread post by **Theodore01** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:19 pm

are you using this?

tfunke wrote:side note: if you go a cleric, there is a level (2 i believe?) "spell" that you can cast called consecration, which when cast, gives you a +3 to all your turns in that entire area in which you cast the spell, 2 hours per level.
EDIT: Another final note. From my experience, you generally will not outright destroy undead close to your level, but rebuking them is very possible.

chad878262 · Unread post by **chad878262** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:30 pm

luminus wrote:To say how weak my turn undead toon feels, here I got kicked back out of the first room inside the Vault where Saul met a single Morhg Avenger. Saul was fully buffed and had an (buffed) Astral Deva with him along. I remember at level 20 this seemed less of a problem.
Now I was totally unable to turn the creature, and after 5-6 attempts or so I gave up. I was also barely able to scratch it even when hitting. When a second one of those showed up, I even had to make a run for it, regenerate on and everything.
Perhaps it's better if I just convert/rcr him to an almost pure paladin after all, like voices are telling me to. http://nwn2db.com/build/?270568

VoD1 is CR 24...10 higher than the base CR outside. Mac level of creature effected is 23 in your screen shot, 1 less than the area CR...Possible the 23 was a bad roll, but that's why your turning failed.

viewtopic.php?f=149&t=61255

Blackman D · Unread post by **Blackman D** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:34 pm

whats his current build? and CHA mod

there are two rolls for turning, the first one is for the max HD you can affect and the second is for your total damage done, spent from weakest HD to highest

Blackman D wrote:Subject: Turn undead -1 hitdice

Blackman D wrote:here is how turning works, two checks, one for max HD and one for total HD

max HD check is 1d20 + CHA mod + any other bonuses (sun domain gets extra 1d6, improved turning gets +1 level)

if result is 0 or lower max HD equals cleric level minus 4
if result is 1-3 max HD equals cleric level minus 3
if result is 4-6 max HD equals cleric level minus 2
if result is 7-9 max HD equals cleric level minus 1
if result is 10-12 max HD equals cleric level
if result is 13-15 max HD equals cleric level plus 1
if result is 16-18 max HD equals cleric level plus 2
if result is 19-21 max HD equals cleric level plus 3
if result is 22 or higher max HD equals cleric level plus 4

total HD check is 2d6 + cleric level + CHA mod + any other bonuses (sun domain gets extra 1d4, empower turning multiples by 1.5 after)

then if your turning class level is x2 of the HD of undead and you successfully rebuke them they are utterly destroyed

so with my cleric lynn, she has a +4 CHA buffed and gets all the extra bonuses, so shes rolls 5 + d20 + d6 for max HD, so on average she'd be rolling an 18 and gets her level +2 for a 29 HD undead as her max currently

damage would be 2d6 + 27 + 4 + d4 then x1.5, on average would be about 58 total HD, she actually rolls more like 65 tho because she always turns at least three undead in the vault who are all (all being the normal guys) 20-24HD

MLs are awesome

Turn Undead became less useful (?)

Turn Undead became less useful (?)

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Re: Turn Undead became less useful (?)

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