TWF Ranger

[Pigdog]

Hi guys, looking for some advice to make a decent character.
I want to make a ranger who uses two weapons as i'm not a great fan of standing back and plinking away at your foes. He will be good/neutral aligned (unless you can convince me otherwise or put him in the Underdark), I like the ranger class a lot so would like at least half of the levels to be ranger.
Can you also let me know if it's better to go strength or dexterity?


Written using my phone so apologies if the structures bad.

[Thorsson]

It's definitely better to go Strength, as your damage is just too low with a Dex build. You generally stop at GTWF with a Str build.

Your main problem then is going to be AC, so you should choose other classes and Feats with that in mind.

[Pigdog]

Thanks for replying, i'm not very well versed in the classes, I understand cavestalker gives some bonus armour but not sure if it'd be worth the dip.
Can you suggest any feats that could help the class defensively if I go strength based?

[Lockonnow]

well if you make a hin ranger you can pick feat power attack anothers couse it will not count that i dont like it that only hin can make this combo hell i will have to all

[Hendrak]

21 Ranger/9 cavestalker. Dwarf

24 Ranger/6 cavestalker . Dwarf with Protection of the Wild feat

You ll want AC. CE and ICE. You want better will saves. Iron Will and Indomitable Soul. Luck of Heroes, ArmorSkin always good. TW Defense, ITW Defense?

DEX 14, you can cast Cat´s Grace on yourself (+4DEX), bracers with AC 4 and mithral chainmail.

I am not sure about Extend Spell, if you can fit it in sure.

Expose Weakness, Bane of Enemies always good in your epics.

[Pigdog]

well if you make a hin ranger you can pick feat power attack anothers couse it will not count that i dont like it that only hin can make this combo hell i will have to all

Not sure if I fancy a strength build with a halfling, they are harder to hit and make good rangers yes but their size and strength penalties make them a bit of a turn off

[chad878262]

Ranger 30 is perfectly viable as either a STR based or DEX based build... They struggle in the AC department so CE or even ICE is not a bad pick up. If DEX based you also want Deadly Defense which helps even out the damage difference from being STR based. When you add in bleed damage from Expose Weakness it is fairly comparable.

Example:
STR based Wood Elf with 25 STR and 14 DEX (requires mithral chainmail, +4 Bracers and casting Cat's Grace)
AC: 10 + 6 (MCM) + 4 (DEX w/ Cats Grace) +4 (Armor Bracers) + 4 (Dodge) + 5 (Barkskin) + 4 (Halo of Sand) = 37 before any feats, tumble, wands or whatever.
AB: 30 (BAB) + 9 (STR w/ +3 item) + 4 (EB) + 1 (Epic Prowess) = 44 before other possible feats.
Damage (main hand): d8 (~4.5) + 4 (EB) + 9 (STR) = 17.5 plus any other weapon bonus damage or favored enemy damage or other...
Damage (off hand, assumes OSTWF): d8 (~4.5) + 4 (EB) + 4 (STR) = 12.5

DEX based Wood Elf with 15 STR and 26 DEX

AC: 10 + 10 (DEX w/ cat's grace) + 4 (armor) + 4 (Dodge) + 5 (Barkskin) + 4 (Halo) = 37 before any feats, tumble, wands or whatever.
AB: 30 (BAB) + 10 (DEX w/ cat's) + 4 (EB) + 1 (EP) = 45 before other possible feats.
Damage (main hand): d6 (~3.5) + 4 (EB) + 4 (STR) + 2.5 (Deadly Defense) = 14 plus any other weapon bonus damage, FE or other.
Damage (off hand): d6 (~3.5) + 4 (EB) + 2 (STR) + 2.5 (DD) = 12

While STR based does have more damage, DEX based is also going to do 10 damage per Expose Weakness vs. 4 for the STR based so for tough enemies like bosses that stacking damage can become 50 per round after 5 rounds vs. only 20 for the STR Based. This is only an example and obviously lots of other things come in to play. For both rangers you are likely going to take Protective Ward for +2 AC and CE for +3 AC/-3 AB as well as possibly taking Luck of Heros and possibly Armor Skin if you can afford it. My point is simply that with the implementation of Deadly Defense a DEX Based, non-Assassin PTWF Ranger is an option.

[Pigdog]

21 Ranger/9 cavestalker. Dwarf

24 Ranger/6 cavestalker . Dwarf with Protection of the Wild feat

You ll want AC. CE and ICE. You want better will saves. Iron Will and Indomitable Soul. Luck of Heroes, ArmorSkin always good. TW Defense, ITW Defense?

DEX 14, you can cast Cat´s Grace on yourself (+4DEX), bracers with AC 4 and mithral chainmail.

I am not sure about Extend Spell, if you can fit it in sure.

Expose Weakness, Bane of Enemies always good in your epics.

A cavestalking dwarf is flavourful and fun, I looked up the class and it looks pretty cool, will it work fully on a surface character who runs caves often? Thanks for the advice on AC feats too!


Whilst looking at classes I saw a Harper Scout too, can anyone tell me how beneficial that could be to a twf ranger? I also like the RP connotations of scouting for the Harpers.

[Pigdog]

Thank you for the breakdown! I've not heard of deadly defense before, is it a BGTSCC only feat? I did just look it up and the extra bit of damage is nice.

Expose Cheeseness has always been one of my favourites, even though i've never gotten it on a Dex character before as i've never leveled them high enough.

[chad878262]

Expose Cheeseness has always been one of my favourites, even though i've never gotten it on a Dex character before as i've never leveled them high enough.

It's a little less cheesy now that auto-hit no longer works. However, it is still the best feat out there for those that qualify and a must pick.

Thank you for the breakdown! I've not heard of deadly defense before, is it a BGTSCC only feat? I did just look it up and the extra bit of damage is nice.

Originally Kaedrin implemented in his pack, but I think in his version it does d6 damage. For BGtSCC it's d4, but still does what it needs to in order to make DEX based PTWF rangers viable without sneak dice.


As to Harper Scout, it's a bit expensive costing 2 feats and several skills you would not otherwise take. However, R22/HS5/CS3 would end up with 1 more Favored Enemy then a full Ranger while retaining CL30 without the need of Practiced Caster. Not a bad way to go if that's the RP you want, but overall I think R21/CS9 would be more powerful.

[mrm3ntalist]

If you decide to go STR, which is jist slightly better than DEX ( mostly because of damage, everything else, a dex build does better ) take the feat Nortlander Hewing. It will boost your damage against non FEs - especially for those with high DR.

[Thorsson]

Ranger 30 is perfectly viable as either a STR based or DEX based build... They struggle in the AC department so CE or even ICE is not a bad pick up. If DEX based you also want Deadly Defense which helps even out the damage difference from being STR based. When you add in bleed damage from Expose Weakness it is fairly comparable.

Can I point out that the earliest Expose Weakness can be taken is level 21. It's OK for all those RCR-ing level 30 builds, but the 'late teens' could be a bit of a problem while you wait for EW.

It's also the case that bleeding damage doesn't crit, nor I think does DD, so I'm not convinced that it evens out, especially as EW also works for Strength Rangers. Indeed based on the description, so could Deadly Defense, providing you use finessable weapons like Kukris.

[chad878262]

Until epics I've never had an issue with DEX based builds as most of the enemies don't have much DR, so long as you use appropriate weapon type. In epics many enemies start getting blanket DR which is where DEX builds struggle.

In any case, having tried it, DEX based ranger with deadly defense is perfectly viable, which was not the case prior to the implementation in March 2016.

[Thorsson]

Until epics I've never had an issue with DEX based builds as most of the enemies don't have much DR, so long as you use appropriate weapon type. In epics many enemies start getting blanket DR which is where DEX builds struggle.

In any case, having tried it, DEX based ranger with deadly defense is perfectly viable, which was not the case prior to the implementation in March 2016.

I know it wasn't viable before, but I'm very surprised that an average 2.5 extra damage per hit makes that big a difference.

[chad878262]

Well, if you consider a Ranger with 28 STR or with 18 STR, the 28 STR Ranger is doing 5 more damage per hit with the main hand, 2.5 damage more with the off-hand. Throw a feat to the 18 STR ranger that gives an average of 2.5 damage/hit for all attacks and the 28 STR ranger now only does 2.5 more damage per hit with the main hand, same damage with the off-hand. DEX Rangers were never that far behind STR Rangers, the issue is that even STR Rangers never had great damage, except when fighting Favored Enemies. As M3ntalist said, STR Ranger is still superior in the damage department, but it is not as clear cut as it used to be, since that 18 STR Ranger could have a DEX of 28 (32 after Cats Grace) which would then give that PC better AC And better AB then the STR Ranger, just a bit less damage.

STR Ranger still has the benefit of being able to carry more loot without getting overloaded, which shouldn't be forgotten.