Enough with the rp bias whining!

[V'rass]

Seriously... everytime excellent evil vs good rp occurs people start whining and moaning and what was turning into an excellent rp plot gets ruined and forgotten. Those who said that the server population is biased against evil rp are right, even when such rp is fully within the rules people invariably make a big stink about it because they dont like said rp despite it being perfectly legal. The malarite plot is a perfect example of this. This is an rp server... whether you like evil rp or not is irrelevant, as long as said rp is within the rules and you get an rp out you have no bussiness complaining. This is ruining good rp and it needs to stop.

[Blame The Rogue]

the important thing to remember, aside from following the pvp rules, is that everyone is here to tell their character's story. every person here controls the destiny of their own character, but not the destiny of other characters

always be respectful and polite ooc

use common sense

ooc tells sent before engaging in a confrontational manner can go a long way

"hey, i noticed you just entered the area. my evil character is on a malarite hunt. just wanted to give you the heads up, so that you and your character can act appropriately to the situation"

just to be clear, i'm not accusing you of NOT doing these things. just putting this out there, for the benefit of all

[Cenerae]

Using my personal experience from interacting with the Malarite, he showed no interest in enabling any good RP, nor did he even properly observe the PvP rules (I did not emote anything that could have remotely been taken as giving consent to getting attacked). Coupled with the merest token effort of RP to support the attack, why would you expect me to be happy about the situation? I should be ecstatic that some guy rolls up without a word of communication OOCly and decides that I'm now here to develop his evil RP via letting him kill me?

That's not how it should work. That's not how any of it should work. I'm all for evil RP, but there needs to be some respect involved, as with any RP session. You don't try and force other players to stop what they're doing and take part in *your* RP goals if they're doing something else at the time, and especially not without even bothering to ask if they'd be interested. This applies to RP in general, not just evil RP. It's rude and disrespectful. Roleplaying is supposed to be a co-operative endeavour. Co-operate and be polite to others on an OOC level, and people are going to be way less likely to get offended with evil RPers. Trying to shove it down someone's throat without even bothering to ask them first is guaranteed to upset some people.

If the simple desire to be treated with respect OOCly which may lead to gaining enjoyable RP where I get to act out my character in a dire situation while the other guy gets to be evil...if that makes me whiny and biased? Then I'm whiny and biased.

[Deathgrowl]

as long as said rp is within the rules and you get an rp out you have no bussiness complaining.

First, as I understand it, there were certainly people who felt that PvP rules had been breached from their point of view. In which case this statement is void already.

But more importantly, even if the rules are being upheld to the letter, that doesn't ensure that both parties in an interaction are having fun. And that should be the top priority in all RP. If you are playing the aggressor you have a responsibility to ensure that your target is actually enjoying the experience. The other player is after all playing the game to have fun, not to get upset.

Former HDM Narshe often said that the only rule the server really ought to need is "don't be an arse". And that is essentially the point here.

[Korchas]

Using my personal experience from interacting with the Malarite, he showed no interest in enabling any good RP, nor did he even properly observe the PvP rules (I did not emote anything that could have remotely been taken as giving consent to getting attacked). Coupled with the merest token effort of RP to support the attack, why would you expect me to be happy about the situation? I should be ecstatic that some guy rolls up without a word of communication OOCly and decides that I'm now here to develop his evil RP via letting him kill me?

That's not how it should work. That's not how any of it should work. I'm all for evil RP, but there needs to be some respect involved, as with any RP session. You don't try and force other players to stop what they're doing and take part in *your* RP goals if they're doing something else at the time, and especially not without even bothering to ask if they'd be interested. This applies to RP in general, not just evil RP. It's rude and disrespectful. Roleplaying is supposed to be a co-operative endeavour. Co-operate and be polite to others on an OOC level, and people are going to be way less likely to get offended with evil RPers. Trying to shove it down someone's throat without even bothering to ask them first is guaranteed to upset some people.

If the simple desire to be treated with respect OOCly which may lead to gaining enjoyable RP where I get to act out my character in a dire situation while the other guy gets to be evil...if that makes me whiny and biased? Then I'm whiny and biased.

I must admit, that is pretty much the exact opposite description of my experience with him both IC and ooc-ly. He was uniformly friendly OOC, did give both me and my companion at that time plenty of time to RP out of things without breaking character, asked if we (or my companion at that time, more precisely) had more time to RP or if it interrupted anything and was pretty much unfailingly polite and nice about it.

At no point did I get any feeling of being forced into anything beyond "I met a clearly bad thing I already heard of and may have to react SOME WAY", which to me is fairly non-character-break-enforcing (although, naturally, you may disagree). He asked for co-operation politely, and I believe had I just told him ooc-ly I really cannot roleplay this or found it profoundly unenjoyable, I had the feeling he may have very well left me alone entirely.
Also, I must admit, his attacking my toon and, later, her lover (as well as plenty of her acquaintances) enabled pretty good RP from my side, so experiences clearly vary and uniformly damning RP like this feels wrong for me, as well.

Lastly, It may seem off-topic, but if PvP rules need to be claimed to not apply by point-of-view, it may be necessary to look into them as well. Since rules should not be a point-of-view-thing, but rather clear and concise "do this, don't do this"-points.
If he clearly broke rules, reporting him to the DM team with screenshot-proof would clear this up pretty well, I believe.


edit: added part about getting enjoyment out of it.

[Calodan]

Everyone here did not build their concept with mortality in mind. Evil challenges that. Enough said.

Sending tells prior is a great way to find out if anyone wants this RP.

Most do not.

If you are offended by said Malarite, Kory is praying for vengeance....Come talk to him. Seek RP instead of this crap........More evil RP ends this way than the right way.

A short drop and a sudden stop...........

[Cenerae]

I must admit, that is pretty much the exact opposite description of my experience with him both IC and ooc-ly. He was uniformly friendly OOC, did give both me and my companion at that time plenty of time to RP out of things without breaking character, asked if we (or my companion at that time, more precisely) had more time to RP or if it interrupted anything and was pretty much unfailingly polite and nice about it.

At no point did I get any feeling of being forced into anything beyond "I met a clearly bad thing I already heard of and may have to react SOME WAY", which to me is fairly non-character-break-enforcing (although, naturally, you may disagree). He asked for co-operation politely, and I believe had I just told him ooc-ly I really cannot roleplay this or found it profoundly unenjoyable, I had the feeling he may have very well left me alone entirely.
Also, I must admit, his attacking my toon and, later, her lover (as well as plenty of her acquaintances) enabled pretty good RP from my side, so experiences clearly vary and uniformly damning RP like this feels wrong for me, as well.

Then it sounds like his behaviour wasn't consistent, which is quite strange. I assume I'm not the only one to have experienced it from my end though, or this wouldn't have even become a topic of debate.

In any case, I'm not 'universally damning' that sort of RP. I would react just as badly to a paladin that goes around attacking evil PCs unprovoked and with no OOC communication, were I playing an evil character myself. Communication and respect is important with this sort of activity, whether you're playing an evil character or not. If I'm not shown either, then I'm going to respond badly. I imagine many others would too.

[NeOmega]

its only fun if you are the big winner

[Tantive]

Then it sounds like his behaviour wasn't consistent, which is quite strange.

It might not be strange, if the player in question has been changing approach in response of feedback received.

This was never the nature of evil, and that it supposedly has to bring conflict to players. I've had no encounter with the player itself and the roleplay so I won't judge it, so the following is based on scenarios alike this one, which have happened prior.

The problem with a pvp encounter with characters built specificly to pvp, is that if you were to take your character seriously, you'de in most cases be permad upon death. This in most instances would be the victim. This means if you followed through you'de have to recycle characters, over and over, breaking bonds with the friends you play, the histories and guilds you were part of, and the story you wanted to tell. Not to mention having to build it all up again with a new character. In comparison, most of the characters that are specificly geared and created conceptially to bring conflict against players, have none of that to lose. So, when that character dies, they are usually fine to perma it. If they survive long enough to create lots of roleplay, thats usually because they were not focussing on the player conflict.

In DnD sessions, the DM usually tailors conflicts with risk and appropriate reward and builds encounters to match, while weaving a story. There's very little of that in simple player vs player mechanical conflict. Its an interruption of roleplay in most cases, instead of enhancing it.

Thankfully, no player is compelled to be permad by other players, and remains a discretion for DMs. If such were not the case, the entire playerbase would be much more focussed on creating concepts to survive or win pvp, then to any other sort. The drawback is, that conflict usually sees no resolution until one player ends it.(immortal characters.)

The verdict? Its extremely hard to make a compelling character or roleplay for an evil character focussed on conflict, perceptionally for others players that they'de want to engage in it. Its also lonely in some cases. You have to think things through, and also consider what would constitute an end to the conflict, because an endless conflict is destructive in passion, and fun (And sometimes just onesided). Its best served in meaningful and short doses.

[Thorsson]

I've come across some very good evil RP on the server, but none of that involved attacking random travellers. This has happened before after all, with Orcs and with players who wanted to play bandits (and that's if we ignore the erstwhile PC Flaming Fist) and it's never ended well. I rather suspect that it's not possible to end well, given that it's not behaviour you normally come across and therefore most players will not be expecting it and are not mentally prepared to deal with it. Especially as many are largely antipathetic towards PvP after previous bad experiences.

[Storm Munin]

Polite and caring OOC
PvP rules followed to the letter
RP well played and kept within reason afaik from my encounter (Haughty elves deserves a good thrashing now and then).


The Malarite so far has my endorsement, and I rarely ever care for PvP.


Team Good will bring him down in time, unless the neutrals get him first.

/M

[7threalm]

if they can't kill you ic'ly they will do it oocly.

See the following.

Radiant heart
Thavians
Kraak
coven
Orcs - various groups
lolthites
ellistrians

the list goes on and on.

My 2 cents.

[NeOmega]

ive had bad and good pvp

bad:

*first experience was first day, a dual- boxxer power orc and necromancer, who said the graveyard was "his kills". when i refused to acknowledge him he telled me (nice rp dude). then he cried to dms when i gave him choice words.
long story short, hes been banned from the game and forums multiple times.

*a level 20 necromancer in kobold ruins trying to rob me. (a necromancer bandit? level 20? kobold ruins?)

*a fight in the underdark, varallas passage. was an awesome, awesome fight, both were laying traps, running around corners to re-hide, etc. then DM stepped in, ruined it, fined everyone 10,000 gold. I will never stop being sore about this one, and i almost quit the server because of it.

meh: i was twice accosted by bandits south of baldurs gate. both times i happened to be playing a pacifist. the first one again was way too high level to be stalking there, since he downed me with 2 arrows as i was running away the other one, well, no fun if you refuse to fight.

my orc necromancer killed in goblin ruins. the winner was hopefully just doing the quest, bevause they were high level.

i kos'd a monstrous humanoid and its master in goblin ruins. i lost and fled, then got a ton of tells about how i lost, explaining all the rp rules, and then saying, " and you cant just attack" i reminded him he was running around with a monstrous humanoid companion. "oh yeah, forgot about that".

good: a noob tried to rob me in downtown sshamath. i told him he couldnt. so he later returned with a friend to rob me in the underdark. they lost, i tried to recruit them.

*got robbed in underdark, threw acid bomb, game over... except emnity lasted, we tried to fight again later, dm ruined it.

*my earth genasi saw three orcs in lower kobold ruins, threw fire bomb. was killed. good times.

*a couple of my necromancers were attacked. one was a very good fight. she lost, her friends ran, but she refused. very good sport, good fight, good rp. another time a dwarf killed my orc necromancer in cloakwood caves, kicked some dirt on top of her afterward.

*a battle with my baanite vs a cleric near the ruins of bane. lots of good rp resulted from my loss... ..until dm got involved. i just stopped playing the char for about a year after that.





id like more pvp, i remember every instance.

i just dont like it when somebody sets it up so they are the big winner... ie stalking lowbie areas with a level 20, or buffing up and looking for unbuffed wizards, etc..

which makes me wonder if mr warg is actually stalking areas in his level range... ..or looking for kills. i kind of suspect the former, since it doesnt sound like he has been killed yet in an encounter.


pvp:
no xp loss, no nothing. still lots of boo hoos.

[Rask]

I've come across some very good evil RP on the server, but none of that involved attacking random travellers. This has happened before after all, with Orcs and with players who wanted to play bandits (and that's if we ignore the erstwhile PC Flaming Fist) and it's never ended well. I rather suspect that it's not possible to end well, given that it's not behaviour you normally come across and therefore most players will not be expecting it and are not mentally prepared to deal with it. Especially as many are largely antipathetic towards PvP after previous bad experiences.

That was me, in both those instances.

And I 100% agree with your perception. I had far more success with characters who were evil but not prone to conflict and attacking people. I have had very little/no success with conflict heavy evil RP. The closest I got was with the Bandit group because we put rules in place such as no spell-casters, simple builds only (fighters/rogues.) and the RP out had to be very clear such as a player could give us 1 gold when we mugged them, or a mundane item they found in a chest that had little value, and we would let them walk away ect. If we got beat by players, we would leave the area for a few hours and go grind or be somewhere else for that time. It still didn't work in the end though, even with putting all these personal rules in place in the group. People still often got very upset when they chose to fight and lost, regardless of PVP rules.


Personally I miss the days of drow raids and being beat up and kidnapped by Banites and things like that. I loved those conflict RP moments. The one's I don't enjoy were the conflicts where there was very little RP or valid reason for the conflict. Conflict RP can be a lot of fun if it leads to more RP with more people and generates excitement and goals for the people involved in it. It's certainly a lot more interesting than sitting around the fire pit mentally masturbating the time away.

[NeOmega]

That was me, in both those instances.

And I 100% agree with your perception. I had far more success with characters who were evil but not prone to conflict and attacking people. I have had very little/no success with conflict heavy evil RP. The closest I got was with the Bandit group because we put rules in place such as no spell-casters, simple builds only (fighters/rogues.) and the RP out had to be very clear such as a player could give us 1 gold when we mugged them, or a mundane item they found in a chest that had little value, and we would let them walk away ect. If we got beat by players, we would leave the area for a few hours and go grind or be somewhere else for that time. It still didn't work in the end though, even with putting all these personal rules in place in the group. People still often got very upset when they chose to fight and lost, regardless of PVP rules.

you never see the butt hurt babies cry to dms when they win PVP. then its all happy tells, brags about their PRCs, etc.