Possible to make Invis Blade bleeding wound = sneak attack?

[Egg Shen]

So is it possible to have the Bleeding Wounds an Invisible Blade gets at levels 1, 3, and 5 count as sneak attacks for the purpose of qualifying for prestige classes that require them? If yes, is there any reason we wouldn’t want to do this (i.e. balance issues)?

[Blackman D]

well cant possibility be more OP than letting assassin qual for AA...

[Cenerae]

I was under the impression it was *supposed* to count as sneak dice as far as qualifying for PrCs went.

At least the description of the class states it is so. And I know that it confers sneak attacks on characters that don't already have it, so mechanically I can't see why it shouldn't.

[chad878262]

It is possible that some of the custom PRCs don't look for IB Bleeding Wound when checking for qualifications being met. If so I would say that is an oversight as Bleeding Wound is indeed supposed to be considered Sneak Dice and should work for qualification in PRC's such as Arcane Trickster, Daggerspell Mage or any others that require sneak dice.

[Steve]

According to Complete Warrior, the IB actually gains Sneak Attack x 3 over five levels, but only applicable using a dagger/kukri/unarmed and it stacks with other SA. And that a Bleeding Wound is a choice, that replaced the SA damage.

[Blackman D]

well assassin is suppose to get a choice between death and paralysis on their attack but we all know how that convo is gonna go!

in the case of IB tho the bleed is a much stronger choice anyway, flat 6 dmg vs a 1d6... who is gonna pick the extra dice?

[Egg Shen]

The bleed doesn't bypass the DR that is common on higher level monsters, though. Or does it? I feel like I'm usually seeing my IB bleed damage do nothing.

[Sun Wukong]

It doesn't go through DR anymore, it used to though, which makes the PRC pretty useless to be honest.

[Steve]

IB should have a choice of flat 6 bleeding that stacks per hit, or 3d6 sneak dice (9 avg) that stack with any other sneak attack, per hit.

[chad878262]

well assassin is suppose to get a choice between death and paralysis on their attack but we all know how that convo is gonna go!

in the case of IB tho the bleed is a much stronger choice anyway, flat 6 dmg vs a 1d6... who is gonna pick the extra dice?

It's funny, when I saw Steve's post I thought "who would ever pick the bleed damage?" More Sneak Dice = more damage against epic mobs since basically all of them have DR which bleed doesn't get through. Undead, Constructs, and enemies of similar non-blood having persuasion should be immune to bleed damage, but DR should not stop it (or we should make it so enemies don't have arbitrary DR that doesn't belong, but that'll never happen).

[Blackman D]

yea would be nice if DR didnt stop bleeds and things that would be immune were just immune

IB should have a choice of flat 6 bleeding that stacks per hit, or 3d6 sneak dice (9 avg) that stack with any other sneak attack, per hit.

well its basically the same damage, tho the SA dice is weaker vs crit immune since its cut in half and the bleed damage isnt

DR is gonna hurt both either way

[Steve]

DR does hurt. But, if your build has IB levels plus other SA Class, then taking SA dice from IB would be better than Bleeding, because against DR, Bleeding doesn't stack with SA (but obviously SA would stack with SA).

Currently, if you are an IB facing 7/- DR, the a single hit won't bypass it. But if you had 3d6 DA, very likely you'd sneak some damage by.

However, Bleeding stacks with itself when an SA lands in Hit, applying the next round. So if you land 4 hits x 6 Bleeding, the following round the mob should take (24 - 7) 17 points dmg. Or, having chosen SA dice for your IB, with 4 attacks, the average damage you would have done that round is 8.

If though Bleeding is essentially 6 x 4 individual dmg applications, then 7 DR will negate Bleeding entirely and thus a SA dice option is actually more beneficial, on BGTSCC.

My guesstimate is that IB providing SA dice instead of Bleeding would only really be beneficial if one had a build with other SA dice.

[Cenerae]

If though Bleeding is essentially 6 x 4 individual dmg applications, then 7 DR will negate Bleeding entirely and thus a SA dice option is actually more beneficial, on BGTSCC.

It works this way, unfortunately.

[chad878262]

It's probably not a balance concern, which PRC does it not work for?

Does what not work for?

Basically invisible Blade 1, 3, 5 gives bleed damage and (per Steve, above) is supposed to give the OPTION to select sneak dice instead.

Bleeding Wound[edit]
At 1st level, when an Invisible Blade hits with a successful sneak attack, he inflicts a bleeding wound that deals 2 points of damage per round for 3 rounds. This damage stacks with previous damage caused by a Bleeding Wound attack. He must be either unarmed or wielding only light weapons in order to inflict a Bleeding Wound. At 3rd level, the damage increases to 4 per round, and at 5th level, it increases to 6 points per round. Each level of Bleeding Wound counts as one die of sneak attack damage for purposes of class and feat prerequisites.

Regardless of the class prerequisites, an Invisible Blade can use any light weapon to cause a bleeding wound (i.e. a handaxe or shortsword can be used, but not a rapier).

The issue is bleeding wound doesn't stack with itself and thus the 6 damage per round bleed (at level 5 IB) is generally lost to DR. Allowing for IB to gain 3d6 sneak dice over the 5 levels with high BAB and up to +5 AC from INT would be quite a power bump to the class, but I suppose it's not likely going to cause the PRC to be unbalanced either.

[Steve]

But remember that the SA can ONLY be used with a dagger, kukri or unarmed. As per NWN2, Bleeding works with only/all Light Weapons.