Demon / Devil worship - As Deity and their Domains?

[Incarnate]

Is it just me or are demons & devils missing from the list of actual worshippable "deities" along with their respective domains? I've also seen a post here on the forum that actually gets quite into the whole thing of worshipping a demon or devil, but as as far as I know these are not implemented. Additionally I know that lore-wise that Demon/Devil worship most certainly happens, which also supports that this could be implemented already. Note, the reason I put deities with citationmarks is because that is the list's name that you can choose your deity/patron from.

It makes a lot of sense that one could be worshipping a demon lord or archdevil / devil prince instead of an actual deity - like a warlocks usually would where domain part would be very important for the cleric, or warlock/cleric who would be worshipping any such. I haven't been able to locate any such in the list such as:

Demon Princes:
-Demogorgon
-Graz’zt
-Obox-Ob
-Orcus

Archdevils:
- Asmodeus
- Mephistopheles
- Baalzebul

So I'm curious if they're supposed to be in and you should be able to select them somehow, because if so I don't know where. If not, anyone know if there are plans to add them in future, including respective domains not currently implemented?

[GaretAthran]

From what I'm aware of none of the Princes of Hell or Demon Princes are gods at this time because they don't have a divine spark, therefore they can't grant divine powers. That's why they make warlocks. Asmodeus doesn't become a god until he gobbles up Azuth after Mystra dies and thus doesn't have clerics until after the Spellplague.

[Nachti]

Priests that workship demons draw their divine power from the abyss itself and not from the demon lords themselves (Fiendish codex I).

[MrPsion]

Your one option is Gargauth, who intends to turn the world into the 10th layer of baator. I've always been unsure how to play the betrayal aspect of his portfolio while remaining lawful however

[GaretAthran]

Carefully worded contracts and fine print?

[Hoihe]

Priests that workship demons draw their divine power from the abyss itself and not from the demon lords themselves (Fiendish codex I).

Isn't that Greyhawk?

Pretty sure FR mandates a deity to be the one who grants divine powers. Greyhawk you get powers from dogmas and domains - divine magic is much more symbolic.

[Deathgrowl]

[Nachti]

Sounds like an old 3.0 source, which speaks about a time past the time of troubles.

[MrPsion]

Is AD&D before the time of troubles? Pg 33 of the 2.0 PHB notes

The cleric receives his spells as insights directly from his deity (the deity does not need to make a personal appearance to grant the spells the cleric prays for), as a sign of and reward for his faith, so he must take care not to abuse his power lest it be taken away as punishment.

Also back in the days Wis 16+ could get a Cleric +10% xp

[Incarnate]

Priests that workship demons draw their divine power from the abyss itself and not from the demon lords themselves (Fiendish codex I).

It's correct that worshipping a demon lord the power is drawn from abyss its self - they will be drawn from Chaos and Evil. As such, a cleric that worships a demon lord should at least have one of these.

Source: Fiendish Codex I - Hordes of the Abyss pg. 82.

HOWEVER manu demon lords actually grant access to more domains, for instance Orcus grants his clerics access to: Chaos, Death, Demonic, and Evil - Source: Fiendish Codex I - Hordes of the Abyss pg. 74.

As for devil worship - ALL clerics that worship an Archdevil can choose the Baator domain, furthermore they get access to domains depending on the Archdevil they worship or cult they're in.

Source: Fiendish Codex II - Tyrant of the Nine Hells pg. 26.

[Incarnate]

Demon Lords, their symbol & their domains:
---------------------------------------
All their clerics have access to the domains their demon lord they worship offer; As you can see below both Chaos and Evil are accessible through each demon lord including various others, where the Chaos and Evil are from the Abyss it self:

Baphomet - Chaos, Evil, Fury, and Strength. His symbol is that of a twisted circular maze awash in blood.

Dagon - Chaos, Entropy, Evil, and Water. His symbol is a set of six spiraling tentacles arrayed around a fanged mouth.

Demogorgon - Chaos, Corruption, Demonic, and Evil. His symbol is a forked tail.

Fraz-Urb’luu - Chaos, Demonic, Evil, and Trickery. His symbol is his staff—a jeweled
scepter of adamantine cast at the end to resemble five bestial arms that splay outward to grip a horned and fanged humanoid skull.

Graz’zt - Chaos, Demonic, Evil, and Temptation domains. His symbol is a black, six-fingered hand.

Juiblex - Chaos, Corruption, Evil, and Ooze. His symbol is that of a pseudopod dripping slime.

Clerics of Kostchtchie have access to the domains of Chaos, Evil, Fury, and Winter. The Winter domain is detailed in Frostburn; can be replaced with the War domain if Winter is unavailable. Kostchtchie’s favored weapon is the maul. His symbol is a hammer rimed in bloody ice.

Malcanthet - Chaos, Evil, Temptation, and Trickery. Her symbol is an iron thorn drawing a drop of blood from the lower edge of a pair of feminine lips.

Obox-ob - Chaos, Destruction, Entropy, and Evil. His symbol is a scorpion dangling by its tail from a jawless human skull covered with twisted runes (the scorpion’s tail is threaded through the skull’s eye sockets).

Orcus - Chaos, Death, Demonic, and Evil. His symbol is his wand—a skulltopped black mace.

Pale Night - Chaos, Corruption, Evil, and Knowledge. Her symbol is a billowing white sheet draped over a starry field.

Pazuzu - Air, Chaos, Evil, and Temptation. His symbol is a twisted bird talon.

Yeenoghu - Chaos, Demonic, Evil, and Fury. His symbol is his tripleheaded flail.

Zuggtmoy - Chaos, Evil, Ooze, and Plant. Her symbol is a jawless human skull with a large mushroom growing out from within.

---

Source: Fiendish Codex I - Hordes of the Abyss

---

Archdevils, their symbol & their domains:
---------------------------------------
All their clerics have access to the domains their archdevil they worship offer, including the Baator domain:

Asmodeus - Diabolic, Evil and Law. His symbol a ruby-tipped rod.

Mammon - Diabolic, Evil and Trickery. His unholy symbol is a medalion-sized coin emblazoned with his snake-bodied image.

Baalzebul - Diabolic, Strength and Trickery. His symbol is a fly's head.

Dispater - Destruction, Evil and War. His symbol is a fortress on a reinforced miniature shield.

Belial - Evil, Knowledge and Trickery. His symbol is a pair of red, glowing eyes over a horizontally positioned ranseur, with the whole image encircled by a red tail ending in a wicked barb.

Firna - Evil, Fire and Trickery. Her symbol is the same as Belial's.

Glasya - Diabolic, Evil and Trickery, Diabolical can be replaced with Domination. Her symbol is a scourge.

Levistus - Cold, Evil, Trickery and War. His holy symbol is an iron cauldron in which chunks of ice are melted for rituals.'

Mephistopheles - Diabolic, Evil and Fire. His symbol is a flame rendered in copper and gold.

Bel - Destruction, Strength and War. He doesn't seem to have a symbol.

---

Source: Fiendish Codex II - Tyrant of the Nine Hells.

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[DM Dagon]

Not an offical DM ruling, just my opinon.

Keep in mind, that Forgotten Realms has it's own rules, which due override the rules from the "base" games. As written above, divine power on FR only comes from deities, and not from any other sources, as per the material we use.

As far as I'm personally aware, Archdevils and powerful demons do not grant divine powers on FR, rather they deal with pacts usually.

Keep that in mind.

[Incarnate]

Not an offical DM ruling, just my opinon.

Keep in mind, that Forgotten Realms has it's own rules, which due override the rules from the "base" games. As written above, divine power on FR only comes from deities, and not from any other sources, as per the material we use.

As far as I'm personally aware, Archdevils and powerful demons do not grant divine powers on FR, rather they deal with pacts usually.

Keep that in mind.

Please do provide a reference to this, I've been trying to locate this specifically through the various forgotten realms material, as I've seen Demon lord's and Archdevils referred to as Patrons. Its really besides the point whether its divine, abyssal or infernal power, or that it comes from a pact, if clerics worshipping them still gains access to spells and domains and their granted powers. The reason why its besides the point whether its divine or not is simply due to the fact that if they do grant access to domains and spells, then clerics should have the option to choose a Demon Lord or an Archdevil to worship in the deity list, even though they're not a deity - this is a limitation in the game, they should have special mention that they're not deities if selected from the menu. Another point here, if a cleric selects a demon lord or an archfiend as a patron, then for gameplay and technical purposes the cleric it question has made a pact with such in exhange for the access to the domains and the spells granted.

Also, the Forgotten Realms Faiths and Pantheons book pg. 6 - sidebar: Worshipping fiends seems do indicate that they indeed can grant access to domains and spells. This sidebar makes special mention of the demons Baphomet, Orcus and Pazrael being worshipped in FR. This doesn't mean that any of the others aren't being worshipped and those aren't granting access to domains and spells either. It certainly does seem to me to indicate that IN FACT that demon lords and archfiends are being worshipped and they do grant access to domains and spells, through pacts and other deals, but the latter part really is besides the point if this proves that they do indeed grant this.

[kleomenes]

You are looking for Players Guide to Faerun page 189 which brings the core D&D/Greyhawk Book of Vile Darkness archfiends into Forgotten Realms as valid "deity" choices, acting as an addendum to the FRCS text quoted by Deathgrowl.

Of course they aren't actually deities, but they allow clerics and grant spells in much the same way.

[Nachti]