Ruling needed - Demon / Devil worshipped as deity thread.

[Incarnate]

Hello DMs and DM-Team.

I've made a post regarding Demon & Devils being worshippable as deities in the Forgotten Realms, where evidence has been presented that indicates otherwise of how it is currently on the server. Furthermore I've made a suggestion for the implementation of the domains, selectability of the demons & devil as being worshippable (deity selection prompt).

As far as I can understand this is something that can be implemented if it receives acceptance from the DMs and is ruled to be allowed.

This is the thread in question where the evidence is presented:
Demon / Devil worship - As Deity and their Domains? - The evidence and discussion is throughout the thread, fortunately its rather short.

The implementation of the selectability of the demon & devils being worhshippable as deities, the domains, granted powers and spells would open up to more demon & devil worship rp, more fiendishly themed characters, as it also has more mechanical support.

Furthermore, there are a lot of feats in the Fiendish codex I & II that would really help characters solidify & theme their characters as fiendish themed devil & demon worshipping characters, which I think would be great if feats from these was considered and implemented. Obviously, it takes time and effort to implement such, so obviously it would either come in stages or it would come as a complete package once done, so obviously this would take some amount of priority to get done from other projects which I acknowlegde it will, but I also think its important to get this aspect into the current state of the game.

I'm also interested in your thoughts on this, but most importanly the ruling.

Thank you for your time reading and making an effort to see this through.

//Inc.

[DM Ditto]

Moved topic to the Questions for DMs subforum.

AFAIK at this time period baatezu and tanar'ri have the power to grant pact powers, but they don't have the "divine spark" to give clerics equivalent divine powers and domains yet. I believe later down the line Asmodeus would become a legitimate deity capable of granting domain powers and divine magic and all that after various circumstances but as of now even the most powerful abyssal/infernal denizens don't quite have that level of moxie.

So it can be possible and plausible to have demons and devils as objects of worship (and selectable as a "deity") but it's highly unlikely that they'll be open for divine classes for the time being, and not just because of the work involved on the developer end.

[Incarnate]

Moved topic to the Questions for DMs subforum.

AFAIK at this time period baatezu and tanar'ri have the power to grant pact powers, but they don't have the "divine spark" to give clerics equivalent divine powers and domains yet. I believe later down the line Asmodeus would become a legitimate deity capable of granting domain powers and divine magic and all that after various circumstances but as of now even the most powerful abyssal/infernal denizens don't quite have that level of moxie.

So it can be possible and plausible to have demons and devils as objects of worship (and selectable as a "deity") but it's highly unlikely that they'll be open for divine classes for the time being, and not just because of the work involved on the developer end.

That is quite incorrect - how can one lose divine powers if one has none? Orcus became the patron of the Red Wizard Zhengyi in the 900s DR. Priests of Orcus supported Zhengyi in 1347 DR. In 1357 DR Orcus loses is divine powers as he was banished from his own realm where Zhengyi lost his power.

The others still act as Patron deities and offers access to their domains and spells.

When I was referring to the thread regarding this, specifically this comment was important:

You are looking for Players Guide to Faerun page 189 which brings the core D&D/Greyhawk Book of Vile Darkness archfiends into Forgotten Realms as valid "deity" choices, acting as an addendum to the FRCS text quoted by Deathgrowl.

Of course they aren't actually deities, but they allow clerics and grant spells in much the same way.

Kleomenes referrences this:

I've seen Demon lord's and Archdevils referred to as Patrons. Its really besides the point whether its divine, abyssal or infernal power, or that it comes from a pact, if clerics worshipping them still gains access to spells and domains and their granted powers. The reason why its besides the point whether its divine or not is simply due to the fact that if they do grant access to domains and spells, then clerics should have the option to choose a Demon Lord or an Archdevil to worship in the deity list, even though they're not a deity - this is a limitation in the game, they should have special mention that they're not deities if selected from the menu. Another point here, if a cleric selects a demon lord or an archfiend as a patron, then for gameplay and technical purposes the cleric it question has made a pact with such in exhange for the access to the domains and the spells granted.

Also, the Forgotten Realms Faiths and Pantheons book pg. 6 - sidebar: Worshipping fiends seems do indicate that they indeed can grant access to domains and spells. This sidebar makes special mention of the demons Baphomet, Orcus and Pazrael being worshipped in FR. This doesn't mean that any of the others aren't being worshipped and those aren't granting access to domains and spells either. It certainly does seem to me to indicate that IN FACT that demon lords and archfiends are being worshipped and they do grant access to domains and spells, through pacts and other deals, but the latter part really is besides the point if this proves that they do indeed grant this.

[DM Ditto]

Hi, apologies for the wait as I had some RL issues that precluded having time to adequately answer this. The DM Team was also discussing the matter so I also wanted to make sure everyone had their chance to respond back there.

Interesting to know about Orcus, and I will look into those splatbooks if I have the time to do so later. For this server, though, the team has ruled that fiends can be worshipped by characters, but they are not capable of granting divine spells and domains and so are not a valid "deity" option for characters who use divine magic.

This is partially for mechanical concessions as there are some elements of fiendish divine patrons that are not in the server at the moment, and introducing those elements will not be a minor project. Perhaps later down the line this ruling can be revisited when the matter can be pursued and properly represented in the server. We wouldn't want to skip out on an adequate representation if possible.