Spirit Shaman school

[roderickz]

Coming from a player with 0 experience with spirit shamans and/or divine classes, I need some help coming up with a playable build.

A quick search on the forums led me to a thread in which someone suggested either going the monk dip route or full caster one. I'm pending to the latter.

Also, there are a few blackguard dips in nwn2db for auras and Divine Shield reasons, I suppose - but I don't wanna go evil in this case.

With that information, I thought maybe I could go SS 25/Harper Priest 5, considering (and correct me if I'm wrong) it could get me Turn Undead and consequently Divine Shield. Is this doable?

Gameplay-wise, it looks like spirit shaman stays somewhere in between playing a cleric and a druid, no?

Anyway, feel free to suggest other class dips too!

[Hendrak]

HarperPriest and other PrC dont give you TurnUndead. You need lvls in Cle,Pal or BG for DM or DS.

The former monk dip builds made use of high wis AC with SS shapechange spell. But the recent changes to polymorph made those builds non effective.

Speaking of Polymorph mechanics: that could be a good way to build your SS. Read them up on the wiki.
FlameWeapon/Stormavatar may work in Shapechange too.

[roderickz]

HarperPriest and other PrC dont give you TurnUndead. You need lvls in Cle,Pal or BG for DM or DS.

No? Huh, that's odd. In the wiki it says a Harper Priest gets Turn Undead progression with Selûne's Radiance. Or is it just in case I already had it from another class?

Speaking of Polymorph mechanics: that could be a good way to build your SS. Read them up on the wiki.
FlameWeapon/Stormavatar may work in Shapechange too.

Wait, SS has access to Polymorph spell? I thought that wasn't on the druid list. Or am I missing something here?

You meant Storm Avatar, right. Sorry, misread it. So you recommend going full SS?

[Steve]

You can go either STR high SS and High BAB multiclassing, like Hospitilar and/or Dragonslayer, or you can go high WIS for lots of extra spells, keeping the High BAB PrCs.

SS is challenging if you wish to be a DC caster, because it is high CHA that gives high DCs.

The SS is a pretty good melee base Class, considering its buffs. You just need to make sure you achieve CL 25 (caster level), else you'll be dispelled far too often on BGTSCC. On that note, you can also go for Hierophant levels, which has bonus feats you can spend on Spellpower feats for raising your CL.

I personally prefer the high BAB route gaining 26 BAB for 6 attacks per round, then using Shapechange and buffed to the high heavens, then go around and pummel mobs until bed time.

[roderickz]

You can go either STR high SS and High BAB multiclassing, like Hospitilar and/or Dragonslayer, or you can go high WIS for lots of extra spells, keeping the High BAB PrCs.

SS is challenging if you wish to be a DC caster, because it is high CHA that gives high DCs.

Interesting. Didn't thought of SS as a strong melee, always thought FS was a better pick for that sort of build, but then again, I'm not very experienced.


If that's not much to ask, do you know of any builds I might use as a reference for my own? All I could fish were the monk dip ones.

[Steve]

For high BAB: Spirit Shaman (10), Dragonslayer (10), Hospitaler (6), Hierophant (4).

For DCs, you could go: Spirit Shaman 11 / Sacred Fist 6 / Monk 3 / Hierophant 10 w/ Blood Magic. Shapechange spell is not good for this build.

[chad878262]

FvS is better than just about anything at melee, but that doesn't mean Spirit Shaman is bad.

To Steve's Point, something like SS10/H10/DS10 would have 27 BAB and 26 CL with Practiced Caster. Could go SS13/H10/DS7 which would give you 26 BAB and 27 CL if you prefer, but you do lose 1 DR, 5 Energy Resistance and one use of True Striker per rest. If you want a full CL Gish you can try to do something like SS11/H10/DS5/Hiero4, but it would be tight on leveling. You need CL14 SS to gain level 7 spells for Hierophant so you'll have to go SS11/H3/DS3/Hiero3 at 20 and then get most of your Hospitaler/DS levels in epics which will mean most of your BAB increase is happening in epics. You will be at BAB16 at 20 and gain 10 bab in epics to reach 26.

The main reason I suggest Hospitaler 10 over Dragon Slayer is for the 2 epic bonus feats you will get at H5 and H9.

[Sun Wukong]

Spirit Shaman 12/Hospitaler 10/Dragon Slayer 4/Hierophant 4, can get the caster level of 31 and BAB of 26. (Spirit Shaman 10, Dragon Slayer 3, Hospitaler 4, Hierophant 3 pre-epic.) Honestly, why settle down for inferior caster level only to get one extra point of BAB? But yeah, I suppose the Spirit Shaman 11/Hostpitaler 10/Dragon Slayer 5/Hierophant 4 gets slightly more perks.

If you just want to use Shapechange every now and then, you could just go for a build such Spirit Shaman 30. You could even grab Telthor Companion, Natural Bond, and Epic Animal Companion and have a spirit wolf fighting alongside you. I do not think it is really worth it if you multiclass heavily. You could even make use of Blood Magic.

Now, if you want to make a DC based Spirit Shaman you have to deal with the requirement of two ability scores, wisdom for spells, and charisma for spell DCs. Thus a DC Spirit Shaman basically needs to start with 16 in both wisdom and charisma. You can leave wisdom at 16 and just slap +3 wisdom item in order to cast those 9th level spells and then just go for high charisma. It works, but you do suffer from a horrible case of disease known as MAD.

Therefore, I think that the following builds are the best possible DC builds you can have on this server.

Phantom 3/Spirit Shaman 24/Blackguard 3, caster level of 28, Dark Blessing for -2 to enemy saves, and you get both Wisdom and Charisma to your AC. Base wisdom of 16 with +12 from Owl's insight spell gives you +9 AC. Divine Shield from Blackguard with starting charisma of 16 + 7 ability increases and +5 from epic feats gives you another +9 AC. Tortoise Shell spell gives +9 Natural AC, and Halo of Sand gives +4 Deflection AC. Thus in total, you already have AC of 41, without tumble, without armor enchantment, or dodge boots, or ICE, or UMD, or even dexterity modifier factored in.

Spirit Shaman 16/Blackguard 4/Hierophant 10, gets caster of level 32, it can wear heavy armor and shield for AC, and gets that Divine Shield AC on top.

Spirit Shaman 6/Bard 4/Frost Mage 10/Stormsinger 10, both PRCs can progress Spirit Shaman caster level and thus you can reach caster level of 30. You have your selection of ice spell in the druidic list that you can maximise and empower, and the high charisma boosts your Stormsinger song DCs. Storm of Vengeance from Stormsinger songs combined with Burst of Glacial Wrath that ignores cold resistance can work rather well.

Spirit Shaman 23/Warpriest 4/Blackguard 3, caster level of 29, but it does get that combined aura of -3 to enemy saves.

Spirit Shaman 30, you get 3 extra epic feats.

Spirit Shaman 11/Phantom 3/Darkfire Disciple 10/Hierophant 6, can get base caster level of 32. But you need to go Spirit Shaman 11/Phantom 3/Darkfire Disciple 3/Hierophant 3 pre-epic. Darkfire disciple gives you some sneak attack dice, fire damage applied to form, which actually increase your damage output under the Shapechange spell. Phantom gives wisdom to AC, so you do not need to invest in your strength ability score to carry a fullplate, and base wisdom of 16 with Owl's Insight gives you that +9 AC. In a way this would be my preferred DC build with Spirit Shaman.


Now, Spirit Shaman is not a favored class to any race, so that does limit your racial choice if you multiclass into another base class, such as Phantom, Cleric, or Monk. Thus, your choices are basically limited to humans and half-elves, out of which humans are best due to their extra feat at level 1. (Grey Orc Cleric 3/Spirit Shaman X builds work just fine though.)


As for what Spell Focus to choose:

• Conjuration is the best choice with the druidic spell list. Most of your offensive spells are of the Conjuration cchool of spells. For example the ultimate troll slaying spell: Storm of Vengeance. Additionally, it will also increase the HD of your Summons and Elementals. So you get higher DCs, and better summons with Spell Focus Conjuration, it really is the best deal.
• You do have your share of Evocation spells too, so that is an alternative too.
• And if you get Blast Infidel from Hierophant, Necromancy could also be something to consider for those Finger of Death and 300 damage a pop Harm spells.

But the biggest problem with DC based Spirit Shamans is the leveling up process. Your ability score points are spent on both wisdom and charisma, which leaves little to go around elsewhere, and eventually that medium bab progression is just not going to land enough hits without a dedicated AB ability score to support it. You can soldier through, I have, but it is not the most pleasant experience. Things do change the moment you get the Shapechange spell, but the more you have multiclassed, the more you have pushed that spell into the Epics. Hence, what you can do prior to that is just use summons as meatshields while you chip in some damage with a ranged weapon, with or without Zen Archery, or just blasting enemies with some kind of Reserve Feat.


Melee Spirit Shamans can just buff up, and lean towards their strength ability score and damage increasing buff spells. They are the easiest to level up.


But, you can also make a Wisdom based Spirit Shaman because the druidic spell list comes with a list of offensive spells that have no DCs, or it doesn't really matter if the enemy makes the DC or not. In such a case, you can just buff up summons and have them win the day, and with Phantom/Monk dip combined with Zen Archery, your maxed out wisdom gives both AC and ranged AB. The only downside is the limited boosts to your ranged damage, as you only get Bull's Strength for +2 strength modifier and Thorn Skin for 1d4 piercing. Hence you need to use some elemental ammunition and a nice weapon. Or at least consider going for the Darkfire Disciple PRC as it does give you extra sneak attack dice, and that +1d4 fire damage, which also apply if you cast Shapechange.




What a wall of text. I could go on. My favored class. What I am known for. For better or worse.

[roderickz]

Hi guys, sorry for the delay! Had some issues back at home.

I'll remember that, thanks Steve!

Spirit Shaman (10), Dragonslayer (10), Hospitaler (6), Hierophant (4).

I'm actually considering this one! Thanks, Steve. Also, thanks Chad for the tweaks, I'm definitely putting some thoughts on the full Hospitaler route there.

If you just want to use Shapechange every now and then, you could just go for a build such Spirit Shaman 30. You could even grab Telthor Companion, Natural Bond, and Epic Animal Companion and have a spirit wolf fighting alongside you. I do not think it is really worth it if you multiclass heavily. You could even make use of Blood Magic.

Saw some really divided opinions here about the companion. Is it worth it on full progression? Some folks were saying it was quite weak.

Spirit Shaman 11/Phantom 3/Darkfire Disciple 10/Hierophant 6, can get base caster level of 32. But you need to go Spirit Shaman 11/Phantom 3/Darkfire Disciple 3/Hierophant 3 pre-epic. Darkfire disciple gives you some sneak attack dice, fire damage applied to form, which actually increase your damage output under the Shapechange spell. Phantom gives wisdom to AC, so you do not need to invest in your strength ability score to carry a fullplate, and base wisdom of 16 with Owl's Insight gives you that +9 AC. In a way this would be my preferred DC build with Spirit Shaman.

This looks awesome, to be honest. I always loved Darkfire Disciple, but never knew how to fit it in any of my builds. Thank you, really!

But, you can also make a Wisdom based Spirit Shaman because the druidic spell list comes with a list of offensive spells that have no DCs, or it doesn't really matter if the enemy makes the DC or not. In such a case, you can just buff up summons and have them win the day, and with Phantom/Monk dip combined with Zen Archery, your maxed out wisdom gives both AC and ranged AB. The only downside is the limited boosts to your ranged damage, as you only get Bull's Strength for +2 strength modifier and Thorn Skin for 1d4 piercing. Hence you need to use some elemental ammunition and a nice weapon. Or at least consider going for the Darkfire Disciple PRC as it does give you extra sneak attack dice, and that +1d4 fire damage, which also apply if you cast Shapechange.

How would you spread the initial stats that going that way?

What a wall of text. I could go on. My favored class. What I am known for. For better or worse.

Probably the first time I hear this! Once again, that was amazing help. Thanks.

[Sun Wukong]

A wisdom based Spirit Shaman? I suppose it depends on the build, so lets go with the Phantom 3/Spirit Shaman 11/Darkfire Disciple 10/Heirophant 6 and assume that you will level it up from level 1 to 30 without a RCR.

As a human I would go for:

Code: Select all

STR: 16, 
Reason: (+4 From Bulls Strength and you can get most out of Might +5 Shortbows, it also helps you out in low level melee. It is also nice for carrying capacity.)

DEX: 14, 
Reason: (Spirit Shaman starts out with Shield and Light Armor Proficiency and +4 from Cat's Grace allows you to get most out of a regular Chain Shirt. Chain Shirt and Heavy Shield is the easiest way to get AC early on. But in the long run your wisdom modifier will start to provide more AC and then you should just abandon the Chain Shirt and Heavy Shield combination.)

CON: 10, 
Reason: (You do not gain extra hitpoints, but you do not exactly lose any either. In a way you could make do with less.)

INT: 14, 
Reason: (It gives you +2 skill point per level. It opens the path to ICE for even more AC.) 

WIS: 15, 
Reason: (It is your primary ability score. 15 + 7 [Ability Increases] +4 [Great Wisdom feats] + 12 [Owl's Insight] = 38 [+14 Ranged AB and AC])

CHA: 8,  
Reason: (You do not focus on spell DCs, and hence charisma is irrelevant. It can also be fun to roleplay a slightly cooky spirit shaman.)

But if it is possible for you to RCR somewhere between levels 10-20, I would actually go for the following stats:

Code: Select all

STR: 12

DEX: 14

CON: 10

INT: 14

WIS: 17

CHA: 9

As for the offensive spell selection on a Wisdom based Spirit Shaman:

Creeping Cold spells, fortitude for half.

Spike Growth spell, 1d4 damage per round over a very long time period as an area of effect.

Ice Storm spell, it has no save.

Inferno spell, 2d6 fire damage per round over a very long time period.

Creeping Doom spell on a wisdom based build is always brutal against no DR, low AC targets.

Harms and Heals are blunt 75 damage on a failed save. (Harm is 150 with Blast Infidel)

Storm of Vengeance spell, an area of effect acid damage that does not care if you make saves or not. It is handy against trolls.

Whirlwind spell doesn't seem to have DC based on either charisma or wisdom.

Fire Seeds spell apparently creates Perfected Firebombs to throw around at a minute cost.

Heartfire spell deals 1d4 damage over time that is halved with fortitude save.

Splinter Bolt deals 12d6 physical damage in three bolts, it can score a critical hit, doesn't have a save, and is just a level 2 spell.

It is good to have metamagic feats such as Maximise and Extend Spell, because those give mileage out of the above spell selection. You could even get Empower and Quicken if you can fit those in. A long time ago, when the frost giants weren't so mean, my spirit Shaman used to just run around under Storm Avatar casting a single Extended, Maximised, or Empowered Inferno on every Frost Giant he encountered, and in circles we ran... until the bags of experience died.

Oh, and as a Wisdom based Spirit Shaman, you do not need to reach caster level of 32 for +1 spell DC. The caster level of 30 should suffice. Thus you just need to get Spell Power I from Hierophant, which leaves the two other Hierophant feats for something else. Such as extra metamagic, or Blast Infidel for those souped up Harm spells.

[roderickz]

Awesome! I'll try it on jegs later on today and see how it feels. Thanks a hell lot!

[Sun Wukong]

My wisdom based Spirit Shaman 20/Hospitaler 10 found success while standing in the middle of a Storm of Vengeance, with ICE on, spamming the Acidic Splatter reserve feat for extra 9d6 acid damage per round. With spells like Deathward, Freedom of Movement, Foundation of Stone/Storm Avatar, Tortoise Shell, Halo of Sand, Premonition, and Regenerate, he was largely unkillable. Sure, he did not kill things as fast as other builds could, but he was not exactly at risk of going down either.

Now, things have change since then, a lot. Some mobs have become easier, others harder. Then your summons are a lot better, as is Shapechanging in general. But, part of me still feels that the 9d6 acid damage per round can be worth the feat to a Spirit Shaman. But you should never take it before or after level 18 because Storm of Vengeance is literally the only spell you have that can fuel it.

And if you have not, check the page on Summoning, and maybe also the one for Polymorphing, in case the Jegs does not entirely operate fully.

[Sun Arrow]

With the new shape shift, does it work to have a 16 wisdom and a +3 wisdom item when shape shifted? Or do you lose your +3 wisdom item bonus and your 7-9th level spells when shape shifted??

[Sun Wukong]

I think there should be some fix that copies your casting stat and bonus slot items to a temporary item so those are maintained during Shapechange.

But even if it does not work, just cast Owl's Insight on yourself and get +12 Wisdom. As long as it doesn't get dispelled, you should be fine and dandy popping in and out of form.

[metaquad4]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?285797 (READ THE BUILD's NOTES)

This is one build I came up with a while ago. It ends up having DCs that are on par with a druid's. You'll have DC 32+Spell Level for most spells, and DC 34+Spell Level for select spells like swamp lung, an infestation of maggots, etc.