A HiPSter without sneak attacks...

[casadechrisso]

I was just thinking/brainstorming a little about this, for me and most people I guess HiPS and sneak attacks just belong together from a pure mechanical/character power point of view. Roleplay-wise of course there can be many reasons, and as an emergency escape tactic HiPS is good for everyone.
Now, I have my (devine) spellcaster with HiPS and just decided that adding another class to the build just for getting sneak attacks would be a waste, so I'm thinking, is there any offensive feat or tactic that would make up for it without adding another class? Coming out of stealth with a deadly spell from behind is one fun thing to do, but maybe there are other things I could take into consideration. Just brainstorming a bit and open for ideas - silly ideas or things just for flavor welcome.

[Deathgrowl]

Divine caster with HiPS? Is it a melee focused caster, or are you built for DCs and stuff?

There are many ways of building non-SA hips characters. But I fear that if your baseline is divine offensive caster (cleric? druid? what is it?), it may be trying to do too much if you want to also incorporate some kind of melee damage into it. Also pay mind to the fact that adding more stuff is going to make your caster level take a hit.

A bit more detail would be useful if we are to give advice!

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Even without sneak attacks, HipS mechanic is way too overpowered. With Hide / MS maxed out you will be impossible to detect for the majority of characters, which would help you to both escape most fights and to spy on unsuspecting people. Regarding the idea of such builds, I have seen Aspect of Sorrow playing HipS wizard in this video, which I enjoyed watching by the way (although I have been at the same event, haha)

p.s. Yes, I just noticed that I am dumb and didn't read past topic title before writing, but I will still leave it here

[chad878262]

With Hide / MS maxed out you will be impossible to detect for the majority of characters, which would help you to both escape most fights and to spy on unsuspecting people.

This has nothing to do with HiPS and everything to do with Hide/MS vs. Spot/Listen mechanics, not sure what your point is in relation to the question.

OP. Honestly divine caster with HiPS (outside of certain Blackfame Zealot builds) is kind of a waste... You need INT and most likely a feat (Able Learner) to realistically build up hide/ms to classify as either SD or Assassin. You also need DEX to support having decent hide/ms and don't really have any spells to improve these skills. You also need WIS for DCs or STR because the vast majority of your buff spells cater toward a STR/CHA build over a DEX build.

If I was going to make a non-sneak attack based Cleric with HiPS I would just go C27/SD3. DEX 19 to qualify and max WIS to be a caster cleric with HiPS. Maybe could instead go C17/H10/SD3 as an alternative to increase CL/DCs. Drop an implosion and HiPS away...

[aaron22]

even a DC mage can gain benefits beyond the defensive aspect of HiPS.

the orb spells are a touch attack and coming from stealth enables an attack on a "flat footed" opponent. this means they do not gain the AC bonuses derived from Dodge, Tumble and Dex. this might allow your character to successfully land the powerfully damaging spell.

this would work on other spells that also require a RTA or MTA.

[aaron22]

nvmd.. i didnt read.. you are a Divine spell caster.

cant think of any spells on the cleric list that is RTA.

[casadechrisso]

I think I should make clear that I don't intend to build the most powerful characters anyhow, my builds are mostly roleplay builds, with classes/feats taken for flavor or because they make perfect sense for the personality of my character, even though experienced builders would just headdesk about my choices. In any case, even though I will never enter PvP and probably will not reach 30, I just think about adding some fun surprises for enemies I encounter.

In this case, I have a spirit shaman (as I have seen already a class not very appreciated), the HiPS is part of the concept of her connection to the spiritual world (it's not roleplayed as "poof, she steps into her own shadow"). It's a pure RP thing. But in everyday grinding of course it's nice to be able to escape with HiPS, I only think about about adding some offensive spice to it too. Some kind of backstabbing without sneak attack, getting a surprise for the enemies in. Originally I thought I'd try Ghost-Faced killer because it fits with the whole ghosts/spirits concept, but I decided I find it too cheesy for her and don't want to waste more levels that keep me from spell progression.

So, it's not about a build suggestion, the build already stands as it is and if I'd go into detail you'd probably just say "delete that character, it sucks". It's really not about competition. So I'm just trying to get ideas for single feats and such to spice up what already exists, since I'm new to the server I know there are many feats and things I simply don't know about yet.

[Deathgrowl]

Well, if it's all for RP, I don't know if I can make much mechanical advice. Play what you think is fun, to be honest. It's impossible to suggest some alternative offense from stealth unless I know if you have, say, the strength to back up a twohanded weapon attack or whatever. Maybe zen archery with all the wisdom you have, and some strength put into a bow with mighty. Not going to do much damage, but hey, there it is. Not sure what else to suggest.

Just be mindful to RP your character sheet.

[casadechrisso]

Well, the question was for mechanical advice... I think my hope was just for something like "look at this or that feat, works great on flatfooted enemies, great replacement for a sneak attack" or something like that. Nevermind then, I'll have a long read through the list when the next level is due.

[Flasmix]

You also need DEX to support having decent hide/ms and don't really have any spells to improve these skills. You also need WIS for DCs or STR because the vast majority of your buff spells cater toward a STR/CHA build over a DEX build.

In terms of buffing hide/ms... By worshipping either Mystra or Azuth you could gain access to the Anyspell line of spells, which would allow the caster to get Greater Heroism and Spiderskin. It would help, but at the same time, it's a very rough class route to go down due to the stat requirements needed

[Deathgrowl]

Well, there's no one feat that makes you somehow benefit in various ways from being able to attack from stealth. It's usually a combination of feats or class traits. That's the point. Sneak attack is, after all, a progressive thing in a build. 1d6 sneak attack is practically worthless. 6d6 sneak attack isn't. Do you follow what I'm saying?

The point is that if you want to benefit from hiding, it needs to be planned throughout your build, not just as a hindsight addition.

This is sort of a spell, but maybe you'd be interested in the reserve feats? Invisible Needle, or instance? Or Acidic Splatter?

[aaron22]

You also need DEX to support having decent hide/ms and don't really have any spells to improve these skills. You also need WIS for DCs or STR because the vast majority of your buff spells cater toward a STR/CHA build over a DEX build.

In terms of buffing hide/ms... By worshipping either Mystra or Azuth you could gain access to the Anyspell line of spells, which would allow the caster to get Greater Heroism and Spiderskin. It would help, but at the same time, it's a very rough class route to go down due to the stat requirements needed

could also do the same thing to get yourself an orb spell to use with HiPS and needle grants SA dice so an item that grants d6 SA.

HiPS for flavor can be just that though. if you just use it to bounce out of PvP situations is probably good enough.. No?

[Blackman D]

it should probably be pointed out that anyone attacking from stealth or invisibility negates their opponents dex to AC leaving them flatfooted, feint works for everyone as well

its just that being flatfooted thru being attacked from stealth, flanked or hit by feint is a requirement to get the bonus damage from sneak attack

the problem that leaves people thinking that its not the case is that going SD is very costly feat wise if you are not doing it for the hips dip for your SA dice or planning to go for epic dodge in which SD is the best route

[Sun Wukong]

Spirit Shaman 26/Shadowdancer 4? I think it will work just fine on its own...

But lets say that your character is a human to avoid potential multiclassing experience penalty. In such a case you could go for a Spirit Shaman 13/Phantom 3/Hierophant 4/Darkfire Disciple 10.

You need to go Spirit Shaman 11/Phantom 3/Darkfire Disciple 3/Hierophant 3 pre-epic for the build to be legal. The build gets caster level of 30 with Spell Power I, which leaves you to pick one other Hierophant Ability, which could be anything else, but Smite Infidel for double harm damage can be very nice.

As for BAB, you got 21, which is enough for 5 attacks per round and you can make use of Shapechange to melee. Summons will give you a chance to flank and get that 5d6 attack dice.

Phantom 3 gives you wisdom to AC, and 3 uses of short duration instant invisibility. Zen Archery works nicely enough on a wisdom based shaman too, since Owl's Insight nets you +6 AB from that +12 Wisdom. You might want to stock up on potions of Heroism though. [21 (BAB) + 4 (EB Bow/Sling) + 6 (Owl's Insight) + 8 (Base Wisdom Modifier) = 39~]

Dimension Door from Darkfire Disciple is rather fun ability to have as well. Locked gate, a long river with bridge whoknows where? The door the get past such obstacles is one PRC ability over.

Oh, and druidic spell list has its share of stealth spells too.

Going for a charisma based Spirit Shaman would not be out of the question either, but it would not have as high 'naked' AC or be as good with Zen Archery.



As for something entirely flavour based things: Spirit Shaman 21/Shadowdancer 4/Harper Priest 5 might work for you. Here is the PRC: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Harper_Priest (Not sure if Spirit Shaman Alertness counts as pre-requisite for the PRC.)