Stealth

[redrum27]

Is building a stealth class of any value? or does everyone have buffs and true seeing to make it useless? I don't wanna focus on stealth if everyone can see me no matter my hide and MS levels.

thanks

[casadechrisso]

Definitely of value. There are enough people complaining about HiPS being overpowered/cheap/cheesy/cheatish to prove it works. I can't tell you how good it works in epic PvP, but to sneak around the maps exploring, escaping deadly mobs etc. it's definitely worth it.

[redrum27]

If people complain i guess that's something. I'll keep at it and see how it goes i guess.. and i'll avoid mages and clerics with true seeing

[chad878262]

Definitely of value. There are enough people complaining about HiPS being overpowered/cheap/cheesy/cheatish to prove it works.

Most of the complaints about HiPS (as opposed to Stealth) are related to the fact that you can have a character with minimum hide/move silently (8 or 10 required) and HiPS will still work to break target lock (i.e. to make a caster waste that epic save or die targeted spell). HiPS is far more mechanically powerful in NWN2 then it is in PnP.

Is building a stealth class of any value? or does everyone have buffs and true seeing to make it useless? I don't wanna focus on stealth if everyone can see me no matter my hide and MS levels.

As to stealth in general, it depends on the build/character concept. In GENERAL stealth is only worthwhile if it is your focus. As in, if you have a great deal of your build and equipment dedicated to high stealth. For high epic content you need a minimum of ~75 hide and move silently and more is better. Hitting ~90 hide is certainly preferable and even then the occasional spotter mob might still see you (VERY RARE).

So if you are looking to make a character that would have stealth as an after thought, you need to ensure you are fully viable without it (high saves, AC, immunities and attack bonus high enough to land hits without flat footed bonus). If you are looking to make a PC that focuses on stealth you want high sneak dice to try and kill enemies in the first flurry (either manyshot assassin or PTWF melee). (EDIT: Obviously the other tactic with stealth focus is the HiPS mage, but that should be relatively easy to figure out...) Point being you will focus so heavily on stealth that you give up some other things (low saves, ~40 AC, etc.) Stealth PC's are glass canons so if you play them correctly (UMD for immunities/protections, pick your targets carefully, don't get surrounded/knocked down, etc.) you can wreck most server content. However, if you try to play a stealth focused character like you would a Tank you will be very disappointed in the outcome.

I will end by stating what should be obvious as it applies to every character type. If you take the time to learn how to play them, enhancing their strengths while hiding/mitigating their weaknesses they are a lot of fun and can be quite powerful. However, if you expect everything to be easy and do not take the time to learn to play them within the mechanical confines of the game you will be frustrated. This is why there are so many arguments about various classes with half the posters saying 'class X sucks and needs help' and the other half saying 'they are so OP, they need a nerf'... The former posters have played or are playing the class without taking the time to learn the strengths and weaknesses while the latter probably PvP'd someone who was an expert at playing the build and wrecked them. So much of this game boils down to player skill level, but too few players take the time to actually acquire any skill with a given type of build. YMMV.

[Winterborne]

true seeing

It's worth noting that True Seeing doesn't help in detecting stealth in NWN2. It exists basically as see invisible + see ethereal + bypass concealment + bypass mirror image.

[redrum27]

Wow, thank you for putting so much detail into that. You have made me think that i should RCR, stealth isnt a focus, as AB has been so far, so i think i will rebuild and just focus on putting those points into tumble and stuff for more AC, as i dont see myself being a viable stealth character with 90+ hide and MS.

Any tips for a hard hitting archer? currently im going ranger+elemental archer, with bane of enemies at ranger 21 with all player races being chosen and FE for max PVP effectiveness.

any tips?

[redrum27]

true seeing

It's worth noting that True Seeing doesn't help in detecting stealth in NWN2. It exists basically as see invisible + see ethereal + bypass concealment + bypass mirror image.

So, unlike table top and NwN1 true seeing does not see hide and MS? only invis and those types of magical things? that is a little nicer, but i still think trying to focus on stealth on this build is a waste of skill points. and perhaps another archer build is a better idea.

[chad878262]

Wow, thank you for putting so much detail into that. You have made me think that i should RCR, stealth isnt a focus, as AB has been so far, so i think i will rebuild and just focus on putting those points into tumble and stuff for more AC, as i dont see myself being a viable stealth character with 90+ hide and MS.

Any tips for a hard hitting archer? currently im going ranger+elemental archer, with bane of enemies at ranger 21 with all player races being chosen and FE for max PVP effectiveness.

any tips?

If you want the best Ranger/Archer you can go Ranger 30, R26/F4 (for Ranged Mastery/Weapon Specialization) or you can go R21/A9 (for Manyshot/Death Attack).

If I recall correctly the best Archer build is something like F12/A9/AA9 or something like that, but Rangers make very good Archers as well. Elemental Archer is fine, but it is not a powerbuild class as it just doesn't give enough extra damage.

[Hawke]

Transformed and moved to appropriate location.

[chad878262]

One last thing to note is if you are playing a Ranger anyway there is no reason you shouldn't max hide/ms. You get Camouflage and Outdoor HiPS and there is plenty of epic equipment to fortify your stealth while still giving you +4 Dodge/Armor AC (you have spells for natural and deflection). Camouflage is probably my single favorite ability in the game, regardless how unrealistic it is. I'd never deign to tell anyone how to build/play their character, just saying Rangers get a lot of skill points and have hide/ms as class skills plus they get outdoor hips at 17 and camouflage, so not taking/using hide/ms doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense.

[electric mayhem]

One last thing to note is if you are playing a Ranger anyway there is no reason you shouldn't max hide/ms. You get Camouflage and Outdoor HiPS and there is plenty of epic equipment to fortify your stealth while still giving you +4 Dodge/Armor AC (you have spells for natural and deflection). Camouflage is probably my single favorite ability in the game, regardless how unrealistic it is. I'd never deign to tell anyone how to build/play their character, just saying Rangers get a lot of skill points and have hide/ms as class skills plus they get outdoor hips at 17 and camouflage, so not taking/using hide/ms doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense.

Yep. Just backing up what Chad said here.
A R13/Asn8/AA9 wrecks ALOT of stuff.
Max H/MS, Running in Stealth (Camo R13 feat), HIPS anywhere (not the ranger variety, the Assasin variety does), AA9 for +10 AB and Dmg on ALL bow shots.
It's basically a Commando build that can look after themselves on the server. Some gear required to make it perfect, but not essential, can get away with moderate tier 3 gear.
BUT... has to be an elf/half elf.

All other comments on stealth are valid.
One to add, I've found Stealth to be a game of patience. Waiting for that perfect moment. Planning and Patience Pays Pounds.