Polymorph spell Forms - Best or Most Useful?

[Steve]

Question for those using Polymorph for an arcane build: which forms are the "best" or most useful, in terms of using a non-gish caster for melee engagements?

I've utilized Shapechange on a divine caster build and have a good handle on that spell and use, but I am curious if Polymorph gives a non-gish arcane caster enough POWER!!!! to be able to engage in combat, realistically.

Is it also totally necessary to incorporate lots o' Buffs along with Polymorph? Or could one "get by" with just Polymorphing and using only Item + Weapon enchantments?

Thanks.

[aaron22]

on both sorc and wiz. i use the polymorph right when i get it. i have always buffed it so not sure how well it stands without.

at the low levels it is "survivable" that is the best i can say about that. it can survive EASIER than without.

the ones i use the most are troll and ogre. ill use them all for whatever reason. cause i am kind of random like that, but i generally play the troll. its cheap and easy.

once i get a pretty decent offensive spell selection, i will only keep poly on as a "break glass in case of emergency" .

other than that i like it as a RP device, but everyone knows what they look like so it cannot be used that well. players dont always "just play normal" when you are obviously in a form. about half the time they try to put you in tricky situations. the other half i think you know.

[Akroma666]

Bear..

[Steve]

Bear.. [/img]

Uhm...Bear is not listed under the Minor Role-play Forms on the Wiki. Whatchoosmokin'?!?

@ aaron:
Can you do me a favor? Can you take your caster out for a twirl using Polymorph BUT only rely on Item/Weapon enchantments, and no arcane buffs? Let me know if you..struggle. Cheers!

PS— take a screenshot! (Hi Invoker!!! )

[wurdpass]

Im curious if that Mindflayer form is any good. Cuz I think those things look awesome

Sun Wukong broke it down a little for me and it sounds like investing in spell focus and augment form feats is pretty important to get good mileage?

[aaron22]

W11/MC1 no buffs in troll skin at HH upleveled to max XP: will survive even when yellow mob spawns. no heals kits no buffs no pots. stupid slow kill speed. like get a sandwich kill speed. but will survive running loops from rest period to rest period. gear level is mundane to really bad, but all slots filled.

Xvarts: killed first brute then mobbed by 4. dead. not a surprise.

[Steve]

W11/MC1 no buffs in troll skin at HH upleveled to max XP: will survive even when yellow mob spawns. no heals kits no buffs no pots. stupid slow kill speed. like get a sandwich kill speed. but will survive running loops from rest period to rest period. gear level is mundane to really bad, but all slots filled.

Xvarts: killed first brute then mobbed by 4. dead. not a surprise.

Ha! Sorry I killed your toon...indirectly. lol.

But yeah...maybe with Epic Gear, it would last a bit longer. In my mind, there is the deliberation of whether Polymorph supports XP gain for a DC caster, or is best for a buffing gish type. Seems like the Player must choose Areas and CR carefully...which is not a problem!

Because probably fair to say Polymorph is better than no Polymorph, for a non-gish caster to get in the mosh pit.

[aaron22]

without buffing.....
in that gear......
in a fist fight......

that toon would not survive a loop in the river ruins. might be able to hold in the graveyard.

poly, in it's core, makes you survivable.. and it is cheap. cheap is good. i like cheap

but somebody is prolly laughing at me and is able to naked kill the white with a wiz10. no scrolls.

[Hawke]

Just like anything else, you need to buff your character. Mage Armor, shield, etc. Without it, you are nekkid.

Weapon enchants dont seem to work with troll and other unarmored shapes, even if you wear gloves that deal d6 fire damage.

If you do Bulls + Mage + Shield + GMW + Heroism + Spiderskin you should be in good shape. Toss in a stoneskin for good measure.

Make no mistake, you can die for changing into a construct (more shapechange really) if you have an item that gives you con bonuses... it is heartbreaking

[DiceyCZ]

Using only +3 equip I an get about 33AC and 26 AB on dwarf with base dmg 2-12+6 + anything your weapon has, polymorph form unlike shapechange don't have weapons with +EB so you can up that a bit more with good weapon. Without wards I only use them to travel through bandits and goblins...Thundar's Ride is already a little dicey with the worg goblins, she could do orcs proobably, but buffed I was able to use it in group until lvl 22.

[Steve]

I recently experienced the CON-change dying w/ Shapechange...2100 xp just went poof!

But Troll polymorph shape does't have a weapon in the shape, so no weapon enchantments would work—that's how it is designed. Gloves would kinda make sense, but that was a decision or an oversight, to allow Unarmed shapes to benefit from EB gloves or gloves with Bonuses. Too bad!

Of course, if you create an Arcane Caster that focuses on DCs, you'll have those defensive buffs still in the spellbook. But offensive buffs—Bull's, Heroism, etc.—one may not have.

Also, temp buffs like GMW on weapons do not transfer over, which is clearly listed on the Wiki. Casters simply need Simple Weapons of +4, which are cheaper than dirt these days...and with the Item Level Restriction removed, a frickin' field day for Epic Gear for the Lowbie classes...or should I say masses?!!?

[Deathgrowl]

In my mind, there is the deliberation of whether Polymorph supports XP gain for a DC caster, or is best for a buffing gish type.

It's fine for a DC caster. I was way beyond polymorph by the time the new forms got in, so I am using Shapechange on my fire genasi DC wizard these days. The fire giant hits pretty well, and I have 31 AB buffed up with my 13 BAB (at my current level) and 37 AC. Other forms have different AB and AC of course.

I have 47 AC in bronze dragon shape, but significantly lower damage and somewhat lower AB.

I have 42 or AC in the archer fey form, and about the same AB as the fire giant. The damage is somewhat lower, but it's ranged. This works really well along with a buffed up summon. And I'm not even a thaumaturge.

But I wonder why you gave aaron the mission to test this with basically no buffs? It's a wizard, why shouldn't it be buffing up?

[Hawke]

Dont forget damage DG. Unless I am missing something... all of the unarmed shapes with the exception of the Marut (who has like 100 HP) the damage output is minimal at best, since weapons do not seem to work. Unless I am mistaken.

[Steve]

I already have extensive experience with Shapechange on my Spirit Shaman character.

But zero with Polymorph, and I actually am considering using it with a counterspelling Sorcerer. And if I take that spell, since it locks in, I do not want to make a mistake (because I know there are CL 20 scrolls of Polymorph in the Loot Table, having collected a few myself, and I could just use those).

My Sorcerer build has only room for Greater Heroism in terms of offensive Buffs, having mostly Defensive Buffs. So things like Bulls, Cats, GMW, etc. would have to come off Scrolls, Potions or Wands. Or, utilize Items/Weapon properties, which will transfer over if the Form is the right type.

@ Hawke:
Weapons equipped on the PC will not transfer over their properties to ANY shapes that do not wield weapons themselves. Polymorph or Shapechange forms.

[Deathgrowl]

Well, I don't use GMW, as I can't actually cast it after I change shape, after all (that would be cheating!). So in terms of offensive spells, I only use GH and Bull's (or Cat's in the case of the archer). If you have GH, you're good to go, probably.