Northlander Hewing

[Scorpius]

Hi !

I`ve been using NH for quite a time now

and...

today I found a new bug with it... wich wasn`t there before those last two patches... I havent noticed earlyer cause ennemies immune to other dam then blunt but let blunt through are not at every corners...

so... before those last two patches if I encounter a slime, lets say, and hit it with a slicing weapon it did no damage... wich is good... then you activate NH on a slicing weapon.. you get Blunt dam on top of it... so you bash into the slime with same weapon...

now since those last two patch the blunt property is added to my PC sheet when I press c
but I get no damage on those slimes wich are only affected by blunt... wich should bypass as the property is added...

anyway... could you look onto that plz ?

[Valefort]

First it wasn't changed, secondly NH is not supposed to make you bludgeon things but merely hit harder, in some cases it adds bludgeoning damage but that's merely because of engine limitations, so it's a good thing if DR is not actually bypassed ... otherwise I'll have to change it.

[Hydrocarbonated]

Untyped physical damage tends to show up on the sheet as 'bludgeoning', probably in the same way null racial types are 'dwarf'. It never has any impact on DR evaluations.

Northlander Hewing has a number of bugs, but this isn't one of them, just an odd way for the character sheet to display the bonus damage.

[Scorpius]

...

well because of the skill not working the way it was intented from start...

the whole description of the skill should be changed to match its current stats...

because ATM they do not match

it is cool if you create new feats and spells... but would be even better if the effects could match the real thing...

else you could just write

"Custom Feats Number 1 : it does bla bla and this"

I would say... hey the skill is nice it does more damage or do something else that I would discover because nothing is said... ATM you write it does something that you would like it does... not what it actually really do...

for that... it should be changed so the description does not say... things...

but only tell "reality"

[mrm3ntalist]

Extra bludgeoning damage does not help you bypass monsters that have DR/Bludgeoning. You need to add the bludgeoning type to the weapon in order to do so. An example of that is the bone crusher bow sold at Beregost. Check this and you can see the difference.

There is nothing wrong regarding NH, not in the description nor how it is supposed to work.

[Scorpius]

lol

NH description is NOT even close to what it does... actually...

let me show you the REAL thing the feat does anyway then...
if you really want to adventure on this road... (you just said there is nothing wrong with it...)

The theorical NH if it was not bugged would actually do this
see >>> http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Northlander_Hewing

according to the description it should be a boost with some penalities that could be able to be critical


now read carefully... the bug section is empty right...

yet there are bugs on it
the damage is not multiplied by the weapon multiplier on all damages types you have

here are the REAL maths With NH activated

Lets pick a weapon like... Halberd (1d12 with crit x3) for this exemple with a 28 str pc
who would use dervish dance + 5 /// and a thousand cuts 2d6

(any damages maximised is not able to be multiplied on critical hits BTW)
(LEGEND)
NO = not multiplied on critical hit
YES = multiplied on critical hit

Weapon damage : 12 : no
Strenght damage (two handed 1.5) : 12 : yes
Improved Power attack (two handed double) : 12 : yes
NH added str dam as blunt dam : 8 : no
Dervish dance : 5 : yes
A thousand cuts : 12 : no

REAL crit = no (12+8+12)=32 + yes ((12+12+5)x3=87
total = 119

Crit it should do if NH was not bugged = 61 x 3 = 183

a little canyon between the two... yes ?

in conclusion...
Any damage maximised CANNOT be multiplied when NH is activated
Further more the STR damage added as blunt also CAN NOT


Now if you use a dual weild with NH with tempest whirlwind attack /// wirlwind attack or IWA

the maths are NOT MADE out the the MAIN WEAPON >>>> but with the OFF HAND
and as you would suspect the TWA as it is maximised CANNOT be critical



and those bugs cant be debug said some dms on the forrum on another thread we talked in ...
//////////////////////
so this is why I'm saying you left only the Theorical feat wich you wanted to make and left the REAL thing

if you were to change the feat description to what it actually does or maybe tell about those bugs...

just like the blunt dam added is not real blunt damage in the bug section well then you would be legit in the description... ATM there is a discordance with reality and the theorical feat...

[Scorpius]

and... ho yes...

if Ranger is part of your built

you can activate NH to bow and to unhanded

it then add cut damage

if a DM says no... then go check Daishi Taiyotora my other toon

I found this and the bug was still when I used ranger with a different built wich is deleted now

I kept Daishi so you can look on this

[mrm3ntalist]

NH does not maximize crits. If it did, it would have been nerfed.

[Valefort]

It's not possible anyway, just write it in the bug notes.

[Scorpius]

???

What the?
Ha OK you are trolling... Yes?

Well

Whatever keep eyes closed then

[Scorpius]

Ok... You know what.... I'm done with trying to improve the quality of this server...

Too much wasted energy for nothing...

If you twist things like this then

Maybe you don't understand what I'm saying, maybe you know about problems you don't want to fix... Maybe you are using exploits on your pc... Who knows

So... On my part I won't ever tell about anything else and let people deal with it...

Too. Much wasted time

[Valefort]

Don't be mad, I'm not trolling

You can find plenty of messages all around the forum on Norhtlander Hewing and crits, they are wonky and the problem is well known. However it cannot be fixed at all, hence just write it in the bug notes in the wiki.

And anyway it was already there : https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... der_Hewing

Use this wiki and not the old one as it's not up to date, and not updated at all.

[chad878262]

The crit damage of NH can be addressed with massive criticals as I have said before but QC deemed it too mucho, amigo.

And it was shown with math why.

Northlander Hewing already does very comparable damage to IPA while saving a feat. In addition, NH is a great option for weapons that only crit on 20. IMO the best weapon for NH is Great Axe or Halberd. Basically when you do crit, your crit will do ~19.5 average damage from weapon rolls (~6.5*3) and on a non-crit you will do 12. Always you will gain the extra damage from STR. The other weapon that works great for NH is Dwarven Waraxe which allow you to use a shield while getting 10 damage plus the bonus from STR. Even with Great Axe or Halberd, NH makes Monkey Grip an option since using the weapon with two hands offers no benefit to NH (The bonus STR modifier to damage is static regardless of one hand or two).

Basically Northlander Hewing is one of the better custom feats out there as it currently does exactly what a custom feat should do. It offers an option that is better in some circumstances, worse in others over Power Attack/IPA. I would say overall it is very slightly better than IPA because it costs one feat instead of two. In the end Power Attack/IPA is a bit better for Two-handers and/or builds that include Frenzied Berserker for Enhanced IPA. Otherwise NH is the better choice. Giving even more crit damage would imbalance it to the point where the APR would have to be reduced back to half your attacks being lost or possibly more.

Edit: To give a relatively simple example where NH is clearly superior, let's take a warrior build stripped down to nuts and bolts...Not considering any feats (besides NH or IPA), just BAB, STR, EB +4 Great Axe and either NH or IPA...

Against enemy with AC=40, both PC's using a Great Axe in two hands.

BAB: 30 + 12 (34 STR) + 4 (EB) = 46 AB before NH/IPA.

NH: 46-2 = 44 AB.
Atk 1: 95% hit; damage = 12+18+12+4 = 46*.95= 43.7, crit damage= ~19.5+54+12+12= 97.5
Atk 2: 95% hit; damage = 46*.95= 43.7
Atk 3: 70% hit; damage = 46*.70= 32.2
Atk 4: 45% hit; damage = 46*.45= 20.7
Damage for the round is ~140.3 (goes up if a crit is landed)

IPA: 46-6 = 40 AB
Atk 1: 95% hit; damage = ~6.5+18+12+4 = 40.5*.95= 38.475, crit damage= ~19.5+54+36+12= 121.5
Atk 2: 75% hit; damage = 40.5*.75= 30.375
Atk 3: 50% hit; damage = 40.5*.5 = 20.25
Atk 4: 25% hit; damage = 40.5*.25 = 10.125
Atk 5: 5% hit; damage = 40.5*.05 = 2.025
Atk 6: 5% hit; damage = 40.5*.05 = 2.025
Damage for round is ~103.275 (increases more than NH if crit is landed)

Now, as AC goes down, damage will increase for both, but once you get to ~35 AC IPA will begin showing marked increases. In this case of this 34 STR build NH is obviously superior. Now, if you add in Enhanced IPA and/or Weapon Master IPA will become the better option. It should also be noted that NH PC will have 2 less AC. However, same PC can utilize a shield at cost of 6 damage per hit and will still be at more dpr than the IPA with no shield.

Now, if we are facing an enemy with 34 AC (Or an enemy that has had two instances of Expose Weakness applied for instance). NH damage only goes up to ~165.6 (not including EW bleed). Meanwhile, IPA increases to (95/95/80/55/30/5% hit chances or 38.475+38.475+32.4+22.275+12.15+2.025 = 145.8. As you can see, IPA is now within ~20 damage per round of IPA, even a single crit in a round for both of them makes the damage equal. However, the IPA user spent two feats to get the damage which is less per round than the NH user who only spent one feat.

As I stated, unless you have Frenzied Berserker or Weapon Master you are better off with Northlander Hewing. However, in order to maximize the benefit you need to look to use a weapon with high top end damage (d12 or d10 is better than 2d4) and low crit range (only crit on 20 is ideal). You will STILL do more damage on a crit because of the x3 modifier, but if you use a weapon like falchion with 2d4 damage and x2 modifier your crits will often be no different than non-crits. Thus a Great Axe or Halberd is your best bet. Dwarven Waraxe or Battle Axe if you want to use a shield without penalty.

[Sun Wukong]

Warmace (1d12 20/x3 weapon on this server).

Anyhow, while Northlander Hewing is great on high strength characters due to high strength giving higher AB and Damage... I think IPA still has its edge on builds that get most of their AB from feats such as the Weapon Focus-line. For example, with Epic Weapon Focus and Melee Mastery you are looking at +6 AB, which is the same as the AB benefit from +12 strength. This allows a character with base strength in the 20-30 range to achieve high enough ABs to negate the -6 AB from IPA or ICE. Not to mention that both ICE and IPA are found in the fighter bonus feat list.

Thus while Northlander Hewing in my opinion is solid pick for strength based barbarians, cavaliers, and Divine Power casters, I think those with 12+ fighter levels are actually better off combining the AB feats with IPA. For example, my EDM based Fighter/Blackguard/Frenzied Berserker/Divine Champion does not exactly need Northlander Hewing.

[Scorpius]

Well thank you two for giving all this lore

This goes exactly in the same way I wanted now

What I think is giving information to new players that never played on this server can only help them not be frustrated

But still not everybody goes on the forum to learn
This is why I'm requesting again if you could simply finish the wiki lore for new players

Still missing the
Two weapon fighting with whirlwind combo bug Wich make a player use off hand instead of main weapon ifnh is activated

Then again... Not everyone look on wiki to check... Why not change the in game text to match... If you can't change the bug why don't you change text of when you pick the feats to match its current action... So in the head of the player there would be no bug you understand?


BTW thank you for adding the bug section to it valefort
Still
You should look onto the exploit I told you about with ranger
Makes you able to use NH with unharmed and ranged won with full bonus