Add Improved and Widen Aura of Despair?

[Storm Munin]

Could Improved Aura of Despair feat and Widen Aura of Despair feat possibly be added to the feat list the server support?

An extra -2 to all saves at 100 ft for the price of a (minimum) 3 level dip (costing 2 feat slots), two epic feat slots and having a base CHA of 25 does seem like a fair trade off that does not encourage widespread munchkinism.

It would add roleplay value along with a small mechanical power increase for controller style builds.


Maybe I am biased but it would seem some of the existing caster prestige classes already offer more for less.

IMHO.

/M

[Slunko]

I would love to have improved and wide aura. It'd go great with my DC lock. And with my shaman. Mmmmm.... ALL THE DCs!

"Yes please, can I haz?" is what I'm getting at.

[Storm Munin]

We might also get more charismatic DC bards on the evil side Slunko.

Honestly the only mechanical difference from what a high charisma Bard/BG can do to saves now are:
-2 to all saves within 100 ft, this at the price of 2 epic feats.

Just using those epic feats to add great charisma (+2) would give a caster class another DC anyway, so the difference from now really are another -1 to saves and the 100ft extension.

Not exactly cheap is it?

/M

[Slunko]

We might also get more charismatic DC bards on the evil side Slunko.

Honestly the only mechanical difference from what a high charisma Bard/BG can do to saves now are:
-2 to all saves within 100 ft, this at the price of 2 epic feats.

Just using those epic feats to add great charisma (+2) would give a caster class another DC anyway, so the difference from now really are another -1 to saves (at the price of overall DC) and the 100ft extension.

Not exactly cheap is it?

/M

I fully support and endorse all that was said here.

[Valefort]

It was shot down in the past as too powerful and still is, improved aura of despair is +2 DC for blackguards casters where other need 4 great CHA to get the same. And blackguard CHA casters are all top tier, absolutely no way guys.

[Storm Munin]

Overpowered as opposed to the arcane cheese DC prestige classes? Really now.
But, ah yes, those are not normally CHA builds so then its okay, even cheaply.

How was it really meant to unbalance with the above feats at the current price?
Blackguard class, totally possible on a DC wizard or cleric as is, so it is not a matter of the added -1 to all saves.
Since those could get all the cheese from those prestige classes and -2 to all saves.

As opposed to now, that awesome CHA caster would actually in addition loose -1 on all saves for the effort since those 2 feat slots cant be used for great charisma.

/M

[chad878262]

The issue is one can dip BG and still take the "arcane cheese DC classes". S7/BG3/SA10/AM10 would get really strong CL and DC's for example. The Improved/Widen Aura feats would strictly be better for such a build than Great CHA feats.

That said, I'm interested in if something can be done that would balance something like this. What if in order to qualify for the feats a certain amount of Blackguard levels is required? What if Widen Aura of Despair required 5 Blackguard and Improved Aura required 7 Blackguard? Now you are giving up opportunity to take more PRC levels, Caster Levels, two epic feats and two pre-epic feats in order to get the equivalent DC benefit.

I would agree BG3 dip is already a powerful addition to many EDM and caster builds. However, giving a reason to go deeper in to the Blackguard PRC wouldn't be a bad thing. This would also be a reason to have a Melee Blackguard team up with a DC caster (moreso than already exists) and giving synergy bonuses to different multiple character combo's encourages RP between players.

[Storm Munin]

But if players are encouraged to band up with each other we would need better monsters chad.

On the downside the level requirements you suggest would do nothing to stop a dipping melee/turner cleric (CHA ftw), whereas a bard would get a slap in the face CL and song wise.
Make blackguard levels count as bard levels?

[chad878262]

But if players are encouraged to band up with each other we would need better monsters chad.

I've long advocated for more area's that require grouping up to be successful. Bring on more area's like Speartop and Ulcaster's!!!!

On the downside the level requirements you suggest would do nothing to stop a dipping melee/turner cleric (CHA ftw), whereas a bard would get a slap in the face CL and song wise.

That melee/turner cleric would lose caster levels, becoming dispellable...Much like arcane gishes and Bards. Bard loses nothing since they are not DC casters (or if they are, they aren't very good at it due to enchantment not being a very good school and only hitting level 6 spells). If you're talking about EDM Bards I hardly think anything is slapping them in the face seeing as they are already Tier 1 and need no further power-ups.

End of the day, there as an impasse since as Valefort says, this won't get in as it is currently requested... If you don't like my idea then try coming up with a different one that puts some additional limitation out there. In general power-ups go to Tier 3 and below builds. Trying to add a 'fun mechanic' that powers up a Tier 1 or 2 build is not just a fun mechanic, it's power creep. Doesn't mean it can't go in, but you need to find a way to limit it and make it so there is a relatively equal power cost to it. Otherwise we need to power up the enemies even for solo play (which could be argued for anyway, but not very newbie friendly to do so.

[Sun Wukong]

It was shot down in the past as too powerful and still is, improved aura of despair is +2 DC for blackguards casters where other need 4 great CHA to get the same. And blackguard CHA casters are all top tier, absolutely no way guys.

Since it was not clarified, with those three levels of Blackguard you get:

• 1) All Armor Proficiencies and Shield Profiency
  2) Access to Turn Undead, which in turn translates into extra Charisma based AC due to Divine Shield
  3) An aura that lowers the saves of nearby enemies

All you need to do is get that Automatic Still Spell I-III and you can just be a tank. You can take the hits in melee, and your enemies will have lowered saves to show for their effort.

In other words, Blackguard 3 is the best Charisma based Arcane PRC.

[Tsidkenu]

Add it as a free feat for Blackguard 10. There's your tier 3 class.

[Storm Munin]

I actually wouldnt mind that one bit Tsidkenu, noncasters need some love too and like Chad put it earlier encouraging players to team up are not bad.

Still it would benefit clerics (e t c) over bards, CL27 arent bad for the exchange since you do get a trustly henchman as well. Epic spells still viable.
The bard? CL24 and dragged down to 20 songs (baring extra music feats), no epic songs for you.


Chad somehow forgot bards not only loose songs outside bard levels but casterlevels as well.
As is that would mean that a cleric, or wizard or sorcerer could fit in 7-10 levels of blackguard with less consequence then a bard gets stuck with.

Say Hello to Archmage/Hierophant.


There are a world of builds beyond the ultimate powertrip TM, lets not forget that and the ship of restricting allowed class selection sailed years ago.
No, I am not advocating we make any change equally bad for everyone.
I am for making the class better by these feats, added fun.
If there are a problem with some possible build, lets deal with it there.
We did it to Bladesinger.

Sun:
Blackguard are already in as it is, what would change dramatically by somehow adding the option to increase the aura penalty to saves by 1 at the price of 2 epic feat slots and the CHA: 25 requirement? Any EDM build would suffer to some extent, as would that divine shield duration.


Lets not dumb this discussion down, please.

/M

[Nemni]

I think widen aura could be allowed (though not necessarily the full 100 feet), so that more ranged chars could benefit from it. But improved aura is too much, the base -2 is already strong.

[Sun Wukong]

Outside the perspective of a DC caster dip, the Blackguard is a melee class. Melee classes rarely have all that many DC abilities that even benefit the Blackguard Aura. It is a different story with a full adventuring party because then the mages and the priests get to benefit from it.

But anyhow, from the top of my head, only a Man-At-Arms 20/Blackguard 10 build could somewhat benefit from the increased range and save reduction. Even then you might actually have higher DCs with a Man-At-Arms 30 or a Man-At-Arms 26/Blackguard 4 build.

So... if you are required to have 10 levels of Blackguard... it does somewhat limit the Arcane/Divine DC builds...

But I do think some Sorcerer 10/Blood Magus 6/Archmage 4/Blackguard 10 builds could be a decent possibility with their caster level of 28.

10 (Base DC)
+ 10 (Reasonable Primary Casting Attribute)
+ 2 (Epic Caster Bonus)
+ 3 (Epic Spell Focus)
+ 4 (The improved Blackguard Aura)
= 29 + (Spell Level)

That would be a DC 38~ Wail of Banshee. It is not the highest, but it is still considerably high. You also shouldn't forget how according to the Wiki the Blackguard Skeleton (Base 15 HD) uses Animal summoning slot. That is one extra meatshield for them alongside to the Create Greater Undead and those created by Animate Dead.

Oh, and some Evocation based Cleric could get DC 41~ Implosions.

[metaquad4]

Add it as a free feat for Blackguard 10. There's your tier 3 class.

Not a bad idea, actually.

Blackguard Aura gives -2 Saves at level 3 (as with now). At level 6, it gives -2 AC. At level 9, it gets extended to 100 feet. At level 10, it increases to -4 AC and -4 to Saves.

That'd probably make 10 Blackguard fairly worth it, actually. Two birds, one stone. Reason for the -4 AC is to give it some functionality for martial characters too (not only that, but for the whole party. Casters and Martials.).