Sword and Board build that can compete with Hipsters?

[Darkwind]

Hiya folks.

I've been going a little crazy during the full RCR period and have run through literally dozens of different builds. The thing I'm seeming to not find is a viable sword and board build that can hang with the absurdly high dmg output of your typical Hipster.

I know it -can- be done because I actually go out and play w/ these builds and group with others so I see their damage numbers. I've seen some guys coming close or surpassing my sneak attack guys.

I'd like to build a second character that is a big heavy armor guy with sword / shield combo. Two handers right now I don't think can compete from what I've been reading so I think S/S is the way to go.

I really do NOT want to have to use Weapon Master for this just because I don't like being locked into a single weapon but maybe that is the only way to put up big damage numbers?

I think the baseline from what I'm reading seems to be using Northlander Hewing w/ sword and board but that alone would not be a complete build out just a basic framework. A divine caster / warrior hybrid of some sort would be my ideal but I'm on the Wiki and simply can't seem to make anything 'work' that comes close to the comical damage I can net from HiPS/Sneak Attack.

[Charraj]

I'm no great builder, so the only thing I can think of is the F/FB/WM build.

Although I have seen a smite Paladin crit for 600 on a boss before, so...

[wurdpass]

I fear itll be difficult to accomplish this without "locking in" to one weapon. Even avoiding Weapon Master, the fighter weapon mastery line of feats is pretty essential to dealing high dmg with a one hander.

If you really dont want to commit to a weapon I expect Barbarian 20 is the way to go. Plenty of options to fill the other 10 levels, with Epic Rage and NLH youll hit hard.

If you're willing to specialize in a weapon:

If you are using a divine caster, remember that at higher levels having Extend Divine Power running all the time is quite feasible, which should boost your dmg projections.

For that type of build I might try to figure out a way to use Stormlord, for the 2d8 dmg bonus. Monkey Grip or the beast shield will give you the spear and board you desire.

Putting dmg on a sword and board, to me, you want dmg that isnt just "better" on a two hander. Supreme Power Attack is balanced around being -3 to +12, not -3 to +6. Northlander Hewing is a good one as its balanced the same with or without the shield.

Fighter 12/WoD or AK 10 is likely your starting point

For more dmg, Howling Drummer/Bard/Pirate can add some flat inspire dmg. EDM is definitely another option.

Weapon Master crits dont play nice with Northlander Hewing, as a note. Not sure why but its bugged. For a crit focused build I would try to get Expose Weakness, though

[Rudolph]

NH takes away attacks, so I'd still go for a variation of the following:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?248349

It also gives you some very good anti-mob magic.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

Barbarian 20/10 Anointed Knight with Shield Bash, Slam and Dire Charge and Northlander Hewing.

My damage after charge is about 60 damage per hit, x4 and additional 20 damage from shield bash. This is a build which probably maximises sword and board damage the best, because :

Plain Rage gives a flat +5 to damage (irrespective of fighting or weapon style)

Northlander Hewing gives bonus to damage equal to Strength modifier, which is already greatly enhanced through Rage. You can count +14.

It maximises physical damage and bonus physical damage - I use Rod of Flailing which is a flail with +4 EB, +1d4 bonus slashing and two weapon fighting feat, which in turns decreases AB penalty when fighting with Shield Bash on and Heavy Shield.

And you still have +1d4 elemental damage from Anoint Weapon and +1d8 while in Charge.

[chad878262]

It should be considered that a defensive sword and board build SHOULDN'T outdamage a sneak attacker based on HiPS. The Sword and Board, if built correctly is going to have better saves, better AC and over the course of a full round is likely to do ~3-400 damage, as AlfarinIcebreaker's build, above. A PTWF or Manyshot Sneak attack build will do that same ~300+ damage in 2 seconds, but then has 4 seconds of doing maybe ~50-80 damage total and being exposed to counter attacks/spells for which it has less protection than the sword and board fighter.

Does it compete with a HiPSter? Yes, it does. Does it compete for damage with a HiPSter? no, and it shouldn't... a good sneak attack build kills pretty much any caster mob in the first flurry, before they can hit them with a save or fugue spell or IGMS or whatever. The Sword and Board build takes longer to kill it, but will more than likely make their saving throws against whatever gets thrown their way or tank the damage from IGMS.

[aaron22]

i second chad's reply. Two different approaches to killing and not being killed. You can get better dmg than a rogue with a WM build if glass canon is what you are looking for. With a shield your dmg will be lower but AC higher. it won't likely get in the 400 in first flurry that a sneaker can get to. With the right build you can prolly get like 300ish though if that is good enough.

melee builds are like rogue that they are expensive. or at least can be if you want/need it. PvE is much more forgiving and you can get by with less damage output and more AC if you go WM with a shield.

The barb build is an obvious choice too for good damage and good mitigation. less damage at prolly about 200 in 1st flurry, but your defense will be really stout. This is also a much less expensive build.

A melee cleric is really good. This is technically not melee, but really feels like it when you play it. This build will be able to hit for 200ish on the first flurry, but will be able to spike damage with spells and be much more defensive. This is one of the least expensive builds.

I have a million and one concepts out there. only a hips rogue is a hips rogue and plays like it. so what are you feeling?

[Kiran]

30 Man at arms.

[Deathgrowl]

WM/FB builds can easily outdamage the hipsers.

WM/tempest builds are also up there.

I also saw some QCing chambo did with shield bash that was ridiculously powerful. It may have been nerfed a bit since then! I sure hope so!

But you can't have high defense and also that kind of damage output. I would say fortunately.

[wurdpass]

WM/FB builds can easily outdamage the hipsers.

WM/tempest builds are also up there.

I also saw some QCing chambo did with shield bash that was ridiculously powerful. It may have been nerfed a bit since then! I sure hope so!

But you can't have high defense and also that kind of damage output. I would say fortunately.

Any chance we can get a breakdown of how shield slam dmg works if QC been looking at it?

[Darkwind]

Thanks! Awesome feedback and now I have another few builds to test drive w/ RCR after this.

I think I should clarify one thing based on some comments here. My MAIN thing was wanting a heavy warrior type guy vs. a sneaky fast guy. Sword & Board wasn't even really the focus of the build so that was my fault for putting it so prominently. The only reason I even put that in there was because from what I was reading 2-Handers seem to not be able to keep up with damage output but perhaps that was false. (I read that on a couple threads here doesn't make it true)

I'd be perfectly fine with a two-hander the primary thing I was looking for was heavy armor instead of roguish light armor and perhaps a divine spell path as well. I liked the couple suggestions here though and am going to test drive 'em for sure.

If I'm mistaken about two-handers free free to chime in. I don't need 'ultimate defense' as chad was alluding to, I'm fine w/o the shield that may have been a false assumption on my part that a one-hander is going to do better.

I also see that something like a FvS / Pally with EDM can turn out some pretty awesome dmg output at upper levels as well at least in the NWNBuilder versions I've cooked up. (unless something has changed)

EDIT:

Kiran: 30 Man at arms.

LOL! Interestingly, there is some truth in this simple build, it really is the sword and board heavy armor guy I'm asking for and I'll add it to my test drive.

[Deathgrowl]

Any chance we can get a breakdown of how shield slam dmg works if QC been looking at it?

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Shield_Bash
https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Shield_Slam
https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Shield_Charge

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Shield_Feats

I personally haven't really been involved with it, but there's all the stuff I think is in.

Thanks! Awesome feedback and now I have another few builds to test drive w/ RCR after this.

I think I should clarify one thing based on some comments here. My MAIN thing was wanting a heavy warrior type guy vs. a sneaky fast guy. Sword & Board wasn't even really the focus of the build so that was my fault for putting it so prominently. The only reason I even put that in there was because from what I was reading 2-Handers seem to not be able to keep up with damage output but perhaps that was false. (I read that on a couple threads here doesn't make it true)

I'd be perfectly fine with a two-hander the primary thing I was looking for was heavy armor instead of roguish light armor and perhaps a divine spell path as well. I liked the couple suggestions here though and am going to test drive 'em for sure.

If I'm mistaken about two-handers free free to chime in. I don't need 'ultimate defense' as chad was alluding to, I'm fine w/o the shield that may have been a false assumption on my part that a one-hander is going to do better.

If you're just looking for nwn2db builds to study, these should be relatively easy to find.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?290672 - WM/FB
http://nwn2db.com/build/?144682 - WM/tempest (this isn't a twohander, but a dual wielder)
http://nwn2db.com/build/?290674 - EDM WM/FB with Blackguard. Can probably do similar with a paladin

Those are some fighter style things that do lots of damage per round.

You can also do barbarian style builds with pretty massive damage. I think Barbarian25/fb5 is quite brutal, but I couldn't find any on the nwn2db made for bgtscc. Shouldn't be too hard to build, though.

I also see that something like a FvS / Pally with EDM can turn out some pretty awesome dmg output at upper levels as well at least in the NWNBuilder versions I've cooked up. (unless something has changed)

Yeah. They're good. Cheesy and good.

I also feel people forget that FS works great even with just going 16 charisma and pumping strength. In this case, FS25/FB5 is brilliant. Cleric25/FS5 is also great (with wisdom instead of charisma, of course). Makes for a good Tempus or Garagos cleric!

[wurdpass]

Hey Deathgrowl, ive read the heck out of those! I have also tested and theres no explanation for why my shield slam deals 40 dmg when a standard attack shield bash might deal 20.

The wiki says it should be the same but Charge and Slam definitely deal more than a standard shield bash.

[chad878262]

Shield Charge does more damage just like standard charge can, depending on what other feats you have.

I would say M@A26/BG (or Pally) 4 is strictly speaking better than M@A30. There is perfect synergy in a M@A build with EDM since challenge DC is based on CHA. Might be one of the best overall builds for a melee warrior with sick AC and solid damage, plus EDM to go even higher. Saves for M@A are not all that great so the CHA to saves from Paladin or Blackguard are a nice boost.

Barbarian 20/X10 is likely the 'best' overall melee build for a mix of damage potential and defense. M@A26/BG4 is probably 2nd. F14/FB5/WM7/R4 is best damage, but glass canon (somewhat mitigated by using scimitar so you can have a tower shield when you need AC.)

[wurdpass]

1d8 or 2d8 from Powerful Charge isnt the consistent 20 dmg I see on charge or slam.

Genuine question: Are you not sure, or being vague on purpose to prevent min maxing. If the latter ill drop it, but if the former id be happy to try and help with some testing.