Spirit shaman vs Druid

[Sokolsky]

Hi,

I'd like to discuss the mechanical power of the Spirit Shaman in comparison to that of the Druid. I'm no build guru myself, so I'm interested to hear opinions of those with more knowledge as well as experiences of those who played both classes.
If the majority of the players assess the Druid as significantly more powerful than the Spirit Shaman, I'm interested to hear how you feel the Spirit Shaman can be improved - maybe not to equal it's power, but at least to approach it.

IMHO:
Pro's of the Spirit Shaman:

• More spells
• Special abilities against a very select few enemies
• Some short concealment

Pro's of the Druid:

• More flexible spell casting
• Powerful animal companion
• Powerful shapes
• Little nature boons such as Nature Sense and Woodland Stride etc.

[Hendrak]

In comparision to druids, spirit shamans are allowed to multiclass into monk or paladin:
great synergy with WIS or CHA build for AC,EDM,DS and spellcasting. Also access to Owl's Insight spell. You could also build for WIS with Zen Archery.

With the changes to polymorph and shapechange spell they can also build as transmuter but with better BAB in regard to wizards.

They get the alertness feat and different skill access which makes it easier to qualify for HarperPriest.

I think the Telthor companion got buffed.

Theres also a special only SpiritShaman blood magic feat which gives increased CL and DC for HP. https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... _(general)

They have an emergency heal and therefore dont die to Vampiric Feast.

I guess Cavestalker PrC also enhances their spellcasting.

Overall they are very strong. Compared to clerics/FVS they are lacking some AB, which is their main disadvantage. Medium BAB is on par with Monks, which are nontheless fun to play, but not on Tier 1 level. + you got magics. And you can build multiple paths.

[Invoker]

Spirit Shaman does not need a buff, nor to be "on par" with Dragon Druid.

It has some advantages with respect to Dragon Druid (can use Epic Spells, can use consumables, on-the-fly spellcasting, Monk multiclassing) and some disadvantages (no Dragon Shape, serviceable but weaker companion), but it's definitely a strong character.

Incidentally, Spirit Shaman doesn't have "some short concealment" or "a contingent Heal so that he doesn't die to Vampiric Feast" (of all things...): Spirit Shaman has built-in defenses that make it basically unkillable (can't be one shot, but he CAN instantly go Ethereal) unless you overcommit.

Dragon Druid is great, but Spirit Shaman certainly doesn't need more power, at present (I recommend trying Blood Magic, by the way).

[Nemni]

The shaman has been slightly upgraded over the last year or so. The telthor companion is improved and many annoying problems with blood magic have been fixed (thx Vale). But it still remains a class that doesn't have any great focus. In melee it lacks AB. In offensive spellcasting it lacks many appropriate spells, blood magic is powerful but draining, and despite being a spontaneous class it doesn't actually end up with so many spells since investing in charisma does not give them bonus slots. Multiclassed with monk they can still be quite powerful and their healing/defense casting is strong, but I think the kit system could be used to diversify them.

[Invoker]

The shaman has been slightly upgraded over the last year or so. The telthor companion is improved and many annoying problems with blood magic have been fixed (thx Vale). But it still remains a class that doesn't have any great focus. In melee it lacks AB. In offensive spellcasting it lacks many appropriate spells, blood magic is powerful but draining, and despite being a spontaneous class it doesn't actually end up with so many spells since investing in charisma does not give them bonus slots. Multiclassed with monk they can still be quite powerful and their healing/defense casting is strong, but I think the kit system could be used to diversify them.

I'd also like Druids and SSs to get some different offensive spells. But those they have are rather good.
Blood Magic is very important for key spells, like Spell Resistance. It's meant for certain casts, more than to be spammed, otherwise it does get draining, even with the excellent healing the class has access to.

I also agree Monk is rather good. I personally like Warpriest as well.

[Diamore]

Spirit Shaman does not need a buff, nor to be "on par" with Dragon Druid.

This was not suggested. No one had mentioned Dragon Shape.

Multiclassing:

• Druid can get Wisdom bonus to AC with Phantom. Edit: Max bonus is now equal to Phantom levels. Druid has less maximum AC compared to SS now.
• Spirit Shaman can take Paladin for bonus to saves if Charisma based.
• Spirit Shaman has some synergy with Divine Might or Divine Shield.
• Druid loses its best abilities if it multi-classes.
• Spirit Shaman only requires 20 levels to gain most of its power.
• Edit: Only Spirit Shaman benefits from Wisdom bonus to AC now.

Spellcasting:

• Druid spell DCs benefit from Owl Wisdom to ensure a +12 bonus.
• Charisma and Wisdom split makes Spirit Shaman DCs more difficult to build for and lower than Druid.
• Spirit Shaman benefits from much higher number of castings, lending well to team buffs and no save damage spells.
• Spirit Shaman spontaneous casting benefits from metamagics in the same way as Sorcerers.
• The Druid and Spirit Shaman spell list is limited, reducing the impact of Spirit Shamans inability to swap spells for the occasion.

Class Abilities:

• Druids can become immune to critical hits and sneak attack while still casting spells due to Natural Spell or Oaken Resilience.
• Druid shapes are more powerful than the ones Spirit Shaman has access to through Shapeshift. These can be made more powerful with Improved Elemental Shape, Magical Beast Shape and Dragon Shape.
• Druid has a much more powerful animal companion that can be customised to fit theme and role your character requires. This can be further improved with Dragon Companion.
• Spirit Journey and Favored of the Spirits are both powerful once per day abilities designed solely to keep you alive. Ideally, these should never come up during play and only make playing a Spirit Shaman safer, not more effective or powerful.
• Druids are immune to poison, move faster outdoors and have some stealth and tracking synergy.
• Spirit Shamans get passive damage reduction 5 and can raise the dead. Plus an immense amount of utter rubbish abilities.

I have played one Spirit Shaman to level 24 and Druid to 30. Spirit Shaman is far easier to multi-class, because it loses virtually nothing by doing so (Edit:Spirit Shaman can only be improved by multi-classing while Druid is voluntarily crippled by doing so). Druid is superior for the few DC spells, shapes and relative safety of casting while shifted. Spirit Shaman benefits from far greater flexibility of build, play and higher effective overall AC.

I RCR'd my first Spirit Shaman into a cleric. It is a mechanically uninteresting and poorly synergised class. With excellent RP potential.

[wurdpass]

I guess Cavestalker PrC also enhances their spellcasting.

Is this true?

[Invoker]

Spirit Shaman does not need a buff, nor to be "on par" with Dragon Druid.

This was not suggested. No one had mentioned Dragon Shape.

One of the "Advantages" the OP mentioned for the Druid was "Powerful shapes". The most powerful of those shapes is Dragon Shape.

I RCR'd my first Spirit Shaman into a cleric. It is a mechanically uninteresting and poorly synergised class. With excellent RP potential.

I disagree it's mechanically uninteresting. Synergy isn't perfect, but remains a solid class.

[mrm3ntalist]

I guess Cavestalker PrC also enhances their spellcasting.

Is this true?

Only rangers and druids

[Steve]

.
https://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=446&t=64503

[Nemni]

I don't see how cavestalker makes a whole lot of sense for a shaman. Should be something else.

[metaquad4]

As far a spirit shaman goes, just go minimal WIS (16 is what I usually go), make sure you pick up blood magic (cast extended regenerate before you buff or go into a situation where you absolutely will cast spells every round), use flameblade and fireseeds (though, if you use fireseeds be sure to ward your party as they will get hurt) for sustain. It is pretty much like playing a none-shifting druid. From there on, you use the usual suspects for DC spells.

Spirit Shaman 19/Hierophant 8/Blackguard 3 is fairly strong. You get divine shield, 32+Spell Level DCs (33 if you use echoes, and another +1 to conjuration/evocation spells if you happen to pick up Elven Ceremonial Armor and use Fullplate instead of Mithril Fullplate).

http://nwn2db.com/build/?285797

You also end up with 58 AC with Divine Shield, which can be pushed to 60 with an Improved Mage Armor wand.

Your DC will be slightly higher overall than most druids (shifting or none-shifting, it doesn't matter), and it will 1 lower in respect to a particular school, as most druid builds will have room for Epic Spell Focus. None-shifting druids can typically push their DC higher, but they do lose out on dragon shape and end up with slightly (around 3-5 points, depending on the build) lower AC than a build like this thanks to Divine Shield (they typically have room for ICE to boost their AC up a bit).

Mechanically useful feats include Recall Spirit, Spirit Form, Favored of Spirits, and Spirit Journey. The others, however, are still handy for RP.

Essentially, spirit shaman is a none-shifting druid which, in exchange for a slightly (1-4, depending on how the build goes) lower DC potential and no immunities (to crits, stunning, and the like) gets Recall Spirit (Raise Dead), Spirit Form (2x 5 rounds of displacement), Favored of Spirits (Contingency Heal, very useful with Blood Magic) and Spirit Journey (Ethereal) as well as more flexible spell slots and slightly higher AC (but reliant on Divine Shield).

----------------------------------------------
That said, spirit shaman specific abilities could use some work.

If I were to change something, I would:
*Give Spirit Form a longer duration (1 round per spirit shaman level) and more uses in the epics (1 at 26, and 1 at 30).
*Give Recall Spirit 2 more uses/day, 1 at 20 and 1 at 28.
*Give Spirit Journey 1 more use/day at level 26.
*Make Spirit Who Walks actually useful. Currently, it is 5 DR/Cold Iron, +3 vs Enchantments, and Low Light Vision. Instead, make it:
10 DR/Cold Iron, Dark Vision, and Immune to Sleep.

Both below could be implemented from PnP:
*Guide Magic at Spirit Shaman 10. Give +1 Concentration/Spirit Shaman Level.
*Give Exorcism at level 13, with a DC equal to 10+Spirit Shaman Level+CHA for half damage, same as Chastise Spirits. Damage would be 1d8/Spirit Shaman Level instead of 1d4 but it only targets a single spirit (or creature being possessed by a spirit when applicable in RP). Make it use 1 use of Chastise Spirits.

Something that could be implemented ourselves:
Sap Essence:
At Spirit Shaman 15, you can expend 2 uses of chastise spirits to instead drain 1 level/5 levels of spirit shaman from a target.

Dominate Spirits (Specific):
At level 22, you can expend 1 use of Chastise Spirits to enslave a particular hostile spirit to your will and dominate it. The DC for this ability is 10+Spirit Shaman Level+CHA.

Dominate Spirits (Environment):
At level 25, you can expend 3 uses of chastise spirits to summon a swarm of various elemental, fey, undead, or animal spirits to your location. You can choose what kind of spirit you desire to summon. For every 6 levels of spirit shaman, you summon 1 spirit of your chosen kind. This counts as a swarm summon. You must have detect spirits on for this to function.

Elemental: Summons various earth, water, fire, and air elementals, each summon having a 25% chance of being each kind respectively.
Fey: Summons pixies (wizards) and dryads (druids), with a 50% chance of each being summoned.
Undead: Summons wraiths, with a 5% chance of each summon being a more powerful dread wraith.
Animal: Summons spirit wolves and bears, with a 50% chance of each being summoned.

Just some ideas to make Spirit Shaman a little more interesting, while still keeping its flavor.

[Diamore]

Apologies if I am missing something obvious but it appears that build is only just equal with a normal Druid for spell DCs.

• The Spell DC in that Spirit Shaman build appears to be 30 with CL 33 bonus, blood magic DC and a +3 Charisma item.
• A basic pure druid with Dragon Shape and Epic Spell Focus Conjuration has that same Spell DC. But with the benefits of spell focus and no damage from their own spells.

The build, and Spirit Shamans generally, don't have an advantage in spell DCs. It seems to come down to the same benefits as before, multiple castings and alternative multi-classing options.

I do like the idea of giving Spirit Shamans something akin to the swarm summons you suggest. Personally I think that does stray a little into Druid territory though by having them physically summonsed.

Perhaps something like the Astrological Augment spell or where the spirits assist but cannot be seen? Invisible attacks in an area, random buffs and debuffs in a massive area or around the Spirit Shaman. I have always seen Spirit Shamans as the link to the spiritual not the ones that bring it into our world.

[Sokolsky]

Thanks for the input eveyone!

If the majority of the players assess the Druid as significantly more powerful than the Spirit Shaman, I'm interested to hear how you feel the Spirit Shaman can be improved - maybe not to equal it's power, but at least to approach it.

It turns out this is not the case.

Some people (or just someone) were of the opinion that

spirit shaman specific abilities could use some work.

Interesting suggestions were made, but I'm interpreting the lack of replies as a lack of interest. I guess either not enough people agree or not enough people care too much about the class. That's perfectly fine.

The OP has been answered and the thread can be locked

[metaquad4]

Thanks for the input eveyone!

If the majority of the players assess the Druid as significantly more powerful than the Spirit Shaman, I'm interested to hear how you feel the Spirit Shaman can be improved - maybe not to equal it's power, but at least to approach it.

It turns out this is not the case.

Well, this is actually the case. Druid can clock in DC 35+Spell Level (32 for general spells, 35 for a school) or even 36 (33 for general spells, 36 for a school) with a couple specific builds. Shapeless Druid is significantly stronger than spirit shaman. Don't forget, for your spirit shaman you also need to be within 10 feet of your target (blackguard aura) and you need to sacrifice HP upon cast to achieve lesser results in terms of their spell-book's power.

In terms to defensive power, they have a few more AC points but they need to use Divine Shield to maintain it and they have fewer immunities. They do get a contingency heal and ethereal jaunt from a feat, but the contingency heal is mostly to look after sloppy play (with skill, this feat is irrelevant) and ethereal isn't too necessary either.

That said, I think the key to buffing spirit shaman (since the server probably won't give them WIS/WIS even though druid would still have superior defensive options or even CHA/CHA) is buffing their spirit shaman specific abilities. Giving them some powerful, usable abilities like summoning, energy drain, and other thematic abilities would give them a bit of an edge.