A radical suggestion for the Underdark

[Rudolph]

I don't know whether this is the right place to post this, but couldn't find a more appropriate place.

Maybe this has been suggested before, but I have a pretty radical idea re. the Underdark that I thought might be worth floating, even if it gets shot down in the end. I don't even know whether it can be implemented technically, but suspect it could be, given the various spell and vision effects I have seen and the creativity of our development team. Here goes:

What about making the Underdark near-surface-level bright for its natural inhabitants? I.e. lightening it up to almost daylight level for every Underdark race, and keeping it dark and monochrome for the surfacers? In addition, Underdarkers could have the surface world brightened up to comparable monochrome whitishness. Darkvision and Daylight Adaptation could either completely remove race limitations (I'd be against that) or provide half-way visibility (i.e. respectively lighten or darken things but without colours).

Advantages:

- more appeal for players: this is anecdotal, admittedly, but I have started to play down there repeatedly and happy to accept solo-grinding if little was going on, only to be eventually put off by a) the strain the dark environment put on my eyes even with brightened up screen and b) the somewhat bland and monochrome look that inevitably seems to come with the darkness.

- a natural way of discouraging players from spending most of their time outside their natural habitat.

One objection I can think of off-hand:

The UD looses its gloominess, which is appreciated by some UD dwellers. Response: this could be dealt with to some extent through colour choice or filters, couldn't it? E.g. more violet, burgundy, etc. than on the surface... But sure, if you actually enjoy the current darkness, my suggestion is not for you.

What do you think, BGTSCC crowd?

[Blackman D]

given it took awhile to get them to turn off the lights and make the UD feel more like its actually underground, id say no

and besides, it actually gives purpose to low light, dark vision and light sources which few places on the surface do

but to answer the question, no i dont think its possible to pick and choose because the lighting is a map setting

[Rudolph]

Thanks for the response!

Really? There was a time before the darkness? Would have liked to see that. If many people actually enjoy the current darkness and UD look for its own sake, then the idea is indeed a non-starter. I just find that hard to believe.

Re. your other objection: dark and low light vision would still have a purpose (see my initial post). And torches, too (namely for surface characters going into the dark).

As to the technical aspect: even if it's a map setting, I wonder whether different races couldn't be equipped with certain vision effects that change their experience of the map. Aren't there spells that alter the brightness and colours of what you see?

[Blackman D]

yea i saw that, but there are issues with that too: without an actual light source there is no color because there is no light being reflected which is why darkvision is the way it is -- so you would get someone screaming immersion

but yea it was a thing, super bright and annoying... like the surface... initially only a few areas had the lights turned off as a trial and of course some loved it and others complained but yea the rest went out at some point

and no there are no spells like that, just light which was expanded to include different colors, but nothing about brightness

as far as the spell and items go there is no such thing as a "dim" light because the way "brightness" is defined is usually based off the range of the light source, all of the lights otherwise are the same brightness; so a "dim" light only has a range of 5m where a "bright" light is like 15m

[Tsidkenu]

There's some mod you can put in your override to improve the lighting supplied by the darkvision toggle (including getting rid of the abitrary 'circle' of its 120ft range). I can't tell you what it is any more since I dont play and my override folder no longer exists. Not all UD players like that particular mod, though. It's a decent alternative for the interested UD player rather than asking the devs to mod the whole region again.

[JIŘÍ]

I would prefer it opened to surfa ers more like removing tripping getting xps there. Merging it more in connection with surface and adding several rather hard dungeons yielding high risk and good awards accessible by both sides (but for surfaces more dangerous trip by going that deep).

Let's face it. Pcs are supernatural heroes talks of how they should be scared of UD cannot stand.

[Blackman D]

except surfacers should be scared of the UD as the vast majority of the population is trying to kill them, pc and npc alike

rp wise if you are not down there for a legit reason your presence to the typical UDer is not going to be tolerated, especially given how most tend to think its ok for them to go down to the UD but not ok for UDers to go up to the surface equally for no reason

i have a drow assassin who loves to remind visitors where the exit is the last time a pair made it to the city while i was there they decided to sit in the tavern and have a drink with us... so i got everyone drinks and of course poisoned the two surfacers... everyone lookin at me and im like

[MadSeer]

I never liked the choice of making Underdark areas pitch black. Our characters have darkvision, we players have an unappealing blue filter. It does no favor to the community if the areas are unappealing due to the near total darkness and its certainly among the reasons why I never stick to an Underdark character. If your character is scared of the UD and ends up in there, it's not the area's light levels that are going to change your RP toward that. Far easier to RP blindness when you as a player can see your character's surroundings.

[Steve]

Carry a torch?

Cast a Light spell?

I don't think the UD is darker than any Surface accessible dungeon.

[Blackman D]

it is and it isnt, the surface has the same options of course but there are few spots on the surface that are that dark also because the option is just not used as much mostly because the surface isnt entirely... ya know... underground...

either way, yea just use a torch or use the light spell in the UD if you dont like darkvision, plenty of people have and you may get picked on ic but ooc people understand

[K'yon Oblodra]

I like my dark UD and my dark vision. Never occurred to me anyone could find the UD not appealing.

[JIŘÍ]

except surfacers should be scared of the UD as the vast majority of the population is trying to kill them, pc and npc alike

rp wise if you are not down there for a legit reason your presence to the typical UDer is not going to be tolerated, especially given how most tend to think its ok for them to go down to the UD but not ok for UDers to go up to the surface equally for no reason

i have a drow assassin who loves to remind visitors where the exit is the last time a pair made it to the city while i was there they decided to sit in the tavern and have a drink with us... so i got everyone drinks and of course poisoned the two surfacers... everyone lookin at me and im like

Which surfacers? Your avarage npc level 0?

Or that battle cracked adventurer level 30 who kills drow regularly in Durlag, defeats dragons, faces devil armies?

Or one of those tens of characters immune to fear?

[Blackman D]

you say it as if the UD has no 30s as well who dont want to kill surfacers

just because a toon is 30 doesnt mean they should not be afraid of walking into an area they are unfamiliar with that is populated by plenty of beings that want to kill them, thats not being fearless thats being stupid, those who are immune simply have an excuse to their stupidity

what the player is afraid and what the character should be afraid of are usually two different things that players dont display thru their characters properly the majority of the time, which is how most problems are generated

[JIŘÍ]

you say it as if the UD has no 30s as well who dont want to kill surfacers

just because a toon is 30 doesnt mean they should not be afraid of walking into an area they are unfamiliar with that is populated by plenty of beings that want to kill them, thats not being fearless thats being stupid, those who are immune simply have an excuse to their stupidity

what the player is afraid and what the character should be afraid of are usually two different things that players dont display thru their characters properly the majority of the time, which is how most problems are generated

You are right what player is afraid of and what pc is afraid of are two diffrent things.

Hence PC wont be scared because "drow might have a few 30s able to pvp them" as thats players issue, lol.

[Druchii]

My two cents on the original point is that it's a minor visual aspect that you either like or don't. I think it is better the way it is.

As to the second and third points I noticed. I don't think you can technically enforce many to resort to torches or light spells. That is just RP for the most part as you can manage otherwise. Or they might pop a UV spell.

As to your level 30 fears nothing character. If he is unafraid because the standard spawns cant kill him and lack of online lvl 30 UDers means it's PVP safe. That is your to but others may view it as metagaming or just lack lustre. The UD can be very atmospheric I'd RP embraces it. Or not if mechanics are what you care about. I'd say the same goes for the surface. It is an alien world when you consider the physical and environmental differences. It's not just in and out of your local cave system. But hey, it's everyone RPers choice on how they act. I do appreciate the argument that a Kill on Sight attitude carries mechanical concerns that some might value over RP. After all a PvP death as opposed to RP conflict comes with an actual punish. Kiss your xp goodbye in respawn. Again though.. some might find that engagement 2d for an RP encounter.

Anyway ramble over. Done change it is my personal vote unless dark vision lose it's range limitation. I play UD for atmosphere.