The Anti-Mage

[Stolcor]

Got a character concept and want some help on the build:

A child who was deeply traumatized at the evil he witnessed done to his parents by a mage who was then later himself the victim of a cruel mage. This makes him deeply suspicious of most mages, but also leaves him quite aware of how powerful they are. So, he spends his life perfecting the ability to take them down.

I could go either way on shunning all magic, or simply using it as little as possible to deal with mages.

This is where I'm stuck, how to make him a viable character?

Monk?
Rogue/Assassin?
Dissonant Chord (probably too magical)

[Mork]

Sounds like a commoner to me

Honestly with that kind of background wizard would make sense as well - to fight magic with magic.

[Rain]

Lore / RP wise I feel like paladins and monks fit the feel of anti-magic / magical supression. Kind of reminds me of the templars from dragon age origins.

Mechanically however if you want to be about nullifying magic I would either go for a dissonant chord or if you really wanna screw over magic users there is a PRC for cleric called Harper priest. Inside harper priest you can pick an ability called Shanadkuls binding which is a reflex DC or you become snared, deafened and have 100% spell failure. So that would be a neat way to showcase your anti magic ability.

Another thing you can do (also cleric) is serve one of the moon gods and get moon domain for moonblade. Moonblade puts a stacking spell failure of 20% per hit to the person you hit it with.

Those are just some ideas.

[chad878262]

Rogue/Assassin?

A Rogue/Assassin that does not make use of UMD (Wands, Scrolls) is not going to be able to stay alive very long in many cases, especially against mages.

Monk?

Adamantine Fists, really solid Spell Resistance, and solid battlefield movement (Ki Step). Yep, this is certainly an option!

Dissonant Chord (probably too magical)

Bard magic is natural (like Sorcerer) not trained (like Wizard). I know a certain Bard/Dissonant Chord from my years who was amazingly effective. So this is also an option, if you want to go that route.

Rain's options are also solid considerations. I forget if Holy Sword Greater Dispel DC works against higher caster level wards than it is supposed to, but I feel like it could strip more than just CL25 when it fired. I might be misremembering though. In any case a STR based Shield Bashing Cavalier would be an interesting pick in order to use IKD and Shield Slam to smash those pesky mages on to the ground.

Monk 25/SD5 wouldn't be bad either... Not as much spell resistance, but HiPS is a fantastic defense against spell casters as well...

[Rain]

Basically man if your going to fight a mage. . .

It's going to end up like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U319Q--reho

So you better have some tricks up your sleeve or a really good magical counter ability! XD

[Darkcloud777]

Basically man if your going to fight a mage. . .

It's going to end up like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U319Q--reho

So you better have some tricks up your sleeve or a really good magical counter ability! XD

OMG lmao!

[Stolcor]

Lore / RP wise I feel like paladins and monks fit the feel of anti-magic / magical supression. Kind of reminds me of the templars from dragon age origins.

Mechanically however if you want to be about nullifying magic I would either go for a dissonant chord or if you really wanna screw over magic users there is a PRC for cleric called Harper priest. Inside harper priest you can pick an ability called Shanadkuls binding which is a reflex DC or you become snared, deafened and have 100% spell failure. So that would be a neat way to showcase your anti magic ability.

Another thing you can do (also cleric) is serve one of the moon gods and get moon domain for moonblade. Moonblade puts a stacking spell failure of 20% per hit to the person you hit it with.

I'm liking this. A moon domain cleric who takes harper priest would have 2 directly anti-magic attacks.

And as a melee touch attack, it's bypasses a lot of AC doesn't it? That's important if you're going after a Mage with wards up.

I wonder, can a monk flurry with a moonblade?
Even better, how is a Sacred Fist affected when he equips it?

Lore wise, I feel like it could go either way but I'm betting mechanically the class treats it like a sword.

If they did work a Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist/Harper Priest might be viable, no?

Basically man if your going to fight a mage. . .

It's going to end up like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U319Q--reho

So you better have some tricks up your sleeve or a really good magical counter ability! XD

Hilarious! But true... without Mord's there isn't much to counter a post-buffed mage. A dissonant Chord's dispel gets capped at +25, so even he isn't as capable as just another mage with Mord's.

[chad878262]

And as a melee touch attack, it's bypasses a lot of AC doesn't it? That's important if you're going after a Mage with wards up.

yes, melee touch attack bypasses armor AC.

I wonder, can a monk flurry with a moonblade?
Even better, how is a Sacred Fist affected when he equips it?

Lore wise, I feel like it could go either way but I'm betting mechanically the class treats it like a sword.

If they did work a Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist/Harper Priest might be viable, no?

No unfortunately not. Moonblade is treated as a sword (and sword feats effect things like AB). So most likely sacred fist will be penalized for wielding (I say 'most likely' because I can't confirm testing this, but if it gets benefits of sword feats it should have similar issues when it comes to sacred fist). That said, if you want Harper Priest you could just build a melee cleric... I mean you won't get the Monk defenses without focusing on Monk so just going something like C15/WP10/HP5 could be what you're looking for. Could go for an EDM build to go along with moonblade. Warpriest gives you tower shields, spot as class skill (which is also a HP skill so will be easier to max) and ability to apply haste to yourself as well as high BAB progression (BAB 24 at level 30 instead of 21 for C25/HP5). Plus Clerics already have the ability to give themselves spell resistance and other protections (many of which are not on the breach list).

[Stolcor]

No unfortunately not. Moonblade is treated as a sword (and sword feats effect things like AB). So most likely sacred fist will be penalized for wielding (I say 'most likely' because I can't confirm testing this, but if it gets benefits of sword feats it should have similar issues when it comes to sacred fist). That said, if you want Harper Priest you could just build a melee cleric... I mean you won't get the Monk defenses without focusing on Monk so just going something like C15/WP10/HP5 could be what you're looking for. Could go for an EDM build to go along with moonblade. Warpriest gives you tower shields, spot as class skill (which is also a HP skill so will be easier to max) and ability to apply haste to yourself as well as high BAB progression (BAB 24 at level 30 instead of 21 for C25/HP5). Plus Clerics already have the ability to give themselves spell resistance and other protections (many of which are not on the breach list).

Not sure how I feel about being so much of a caster. A little casting is probably necessary, but the full cleric build is just another buffnbash type. I thought about EDM because it's the only way to add damage to the moonblade (since STR doesn't add damage), but it makes him MAD cuz now you need High STR, WIS, and CHA, plus a little INT to have the skills for Harper Priest

You happen to know anyone who has a sacred fist with the ability to cast moonblade? Or even just a monk/cleric with the spell? I'd like to just make sure, though I'm betting you're probably right.

I think I'd take it if the monk got his flurry even if the Sacred Fist is not viable. Yeah, low caster level would mean dispels, but if the concept is centered on a Moonblade wielding, high WIS monk/cleric with intuitive attack, he could afford to just recast the blade a lot, maybe?

[Rain]

No unfortunately not. Moonblade is treated as a sword (and sword feats effect things like AB). So most likely sacred fist will be penalized for wielding (I say 'most likely' because I can't confirm testing this, but if it gets benefits of sword feats it should have similar issues when it comes to sacred fist). That said, if you want Harper Priest you could just build a melee cleric... I mean you won't get the Monk defenses without focusing on Monk so just going something like C15/WP10/HP5 could be what you're looking for. Could go for an EDM build to go along with moonblade. Warpriest gives you tower shields, spot as class skill (which is also a HP skill so will be easier to max) and ability to apply haste to yourself as well as high BAB progression (BAB 24 at level 30 instead of 21 for C25/HP5). Plus Clerics already have the ability to give themselves spell resistance and other protections (many of which are not on the breach list).

Not sure how I feel about being so much of a caster. A little casting is probably necessary, but the full cleric build is just another buffnbash type. I thought about EDM because it's the only way to add damage to the moonblade (since STR doesn't add damage), but it makes him MAD cuz now you need High STR, WIS, and CHA, plus a little INT to have the skills for Harper Priest

You happen to know anyone who has a sacred fist with the ability to cast moonblade? Or even just a monk/cleric with the spell? I'd like to just make sure, though I'm betting you're probably right.

I think I'd take it if the monk got his flurry even if the Sacred Fist is not viable. Yeah, low caster level would mean dispels, but if the concept is centered on a Moonblade wielding, high WIS monk/cleric with intuitive attack, he could afford to just recast the blade a lot, maybe?

My main character is a monk cleric. And I can assure you flurry does not work with moonblade. The best you could do is have BAB = 25 for 6 attacks per round and have a source of haste for 7 with the blade. For maximum effectiveness of moonblade I think Warpriest for its haste is a given. Harper priest for the mage binding spell. Go alittle herophant for spellpower for more spell resistance. Then another interesting thing you can do is pick malar for your god and go animal and moon domain for an animal companion and get a lvl 30 dog pet with improved knockdown which is great against mages as well. (Harper Preist and Herophant both have feats that give animal companion progression.)

The dog's rp can be something like the source hounds from divinity original sin 2. Trained to sniff out magic and stuff.

Disclaimer : If you go with the source hound though... you'll need to drop warpriest haste. But in my opinion the hound will give you more effectiveness then warpriest (non extendable) haste.

So the build would be something like Cleric 15, Harper Priest 5, Herophant 10. You would have HD 30 pet with improved knockdown, 42 spell resistance, 5 attacks with moon blade (6 with a haste potion) the spell binding spell, and not to mention cleric is the only class with spells that strictly counter magic by themselves. Ex: Spell Mantle, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Etheral Foe, Silence, Leities Circle of Good.

There is also a trinket sold in beregost. The greater horn of blasting that gives 20% spell failure per use of it.

[Stolcor]

My main character is a monk cleric. And I can assure you flurry does not work with moonblade. The best you could do is have BAB = 25 for 6 attacks per round and have a source of haste for 7 with the blade. For maximum effectiveness of moonblade I think Warpriest for its haste is a given. Harper priest for the mage binding spell. Go alittle herophant for spellpower for more spell resistance. Then another interesting thing you can do is pick malar for your god and go animal and moon domain for an animal companion and get a lvl 30 dog pet with improved knockdown which is great against mages as well. (Harper Preist and Herophant both have feats that give animal companion progression.)

The dog's rp can be something like the source hounds from divinity original sin 2. Trained to sniff out magic and stuff.

Disclaimer : If you go with the source hound though... you'll need to drop warpriest haste. But in my opinion the hound will give you more effectiveness then warpriest (non extendable) haste.

So the build would be something like Cleric 15, Harper Priest 5, Herophant 10. You would have HD 30 pet with improved knockdown, 42 spell resistance, 5 attacks with moon blade (6 with a haste potion) the spell binding spell, and not to mention cleric is the only class with spells that strictly counter magic by themselves. Ex: Spell Mantle, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Etheral Foe, Silence, Leities Circle of Good.

There is also a trinket sold in beregost. The greater horn of blasting that gives 20% spell failure per use of it.

Thanks for the follow up!

Not sure I want to play a Malar cleric... I don't think a bestial, evil god of slaughter and hunting fits with the whole "revenge on cruel mages" motif. If I go animal companion route (which I'm now considering, thanks for the suggestion!), I think it might be fine to just drop the Moon domain and simply leverage the Shaudakul's binding and the dog (I'm not seeing improved knockdown, just the regular) as his anti-magic focus. Of course, I could just go druid then, right? Both hierophant and Harper Priest stack with it. For that matter, so does Warpriest, but then it still doesn't progress the companion. Any particularly anti-magic shapes worth tossing into the concept?

Also, I did a search and saw someone say EDM doesn't work with moonblade, but it was from a rather old post (2017). Does anyone know if that is the case? The wiki for EDM says "The damage from this feat is applied to the character" which makes me think it should work with literally any melee attack you make. I don't see why it wouldn't work lore-wise. If you're channeling divine energy to create the blade in the first place, why wouldn't you be able to channel more divine energy into with Divine Might? And it's not -that- powerful. I also haven't seen a single post actually supporting a moonblade build, its always mentioned as a "not bad" complement to a caster build. Without a strength bonus to damage, power attack, NH, GMW, or the bonus damage of some weapons, the moonblade's cap at +10 doesn't keep up with just about anyone who regularly uses a melee weapon. And it can be resisted/dispelled.

I guess they figure the spell failure bonus and bypassing armor AC make up for it, like "you don't hit as hard, but you hit more often and mess up more stuff when you do." *shrugs* I've never made it to epics here, so I don't have much experience of long-term implications of mechanics, just speculation.

Again, thanks for the input, keep it coming if you've got it!

[Rain]

Some small issues there.

1) I'm preety sure Harper Priest is a cleric only PRC. You can't combine druid and Harper Priest.

2) Moonblade is a weapon that applies its damage as a "touch attack" not like a normal on hit weapon. Because of this there is no damage bonuses that apply to moonblade you will only get the base damage of 1d8+10 (+30 vs undead) no matter what buffs you have on.

3) If your looking to be an anti mage well I'll tell you from experience that druid ain't it. Druids may yes have some tanky aspects and a few nice buffs like spell resistance. But if you want to base your entire RP off of hunting mages then there is really nothing that has the anti-magic ability other then a specialized cleric or another mage. Lacking key spells like spell mantle, silence, and etheral foe just doesnt seem like things you want to lose if your entire RP direction is mage hunting. I have a friend who is an epic druid and a friend who is an epic magus (necromancer) we pvp practice every weekend and 7/10 the druid loses by the same spell that allows mages to beat everyone else. Mordes Disjunction.

If your not going to go with the malarite I would atleast still go with a moon domain pick for moonblade. It's a preety core ability for what your looking for.

Edit: Welp just looked it up and druids can infact pick harper priest. Saw that ranger couldnt pick it so must have mixed up druid being thrown in there too.

[Steve]

Epic Counterspelling Mage build. It’s a one trick pony but when your PC can essentially nullify all castings by any Divine/Arcane caster, then return volley at whim, it’s pretty much a guaranteed success (but unlikely to work since any Player knowing the build of your toon can just take an RP out and leave you with your uberness standing in the cold, lonely wind).

[Rhifox]

Epic Counterspelling Mage build. It’s a one trick pony but when your PC can essentially nullify all castings by any Divine/Arcane caster, then return volley at whim, it’s pretty much a guaranteed success (but unlikely to work since any Player knowing the build of your toon can just take an RP out and leave you with your uberness standing in the cold, lonely wind).

Wiki says basically all of the counterspelling feats aside from the base one don't work, though. Dunno if they were ever fixed.

[Stolcor]

2) Moonblade is a weapon that applies its damage as a "touch attack" not like a normal on hit weapon. Because of this there is no damage bonuses that apply to moonblade you will only get the base damage of 1d8+10 (+30 vs undead) no matter what buffs you have on.

What about sneak attack? I suppose it would require Arcane Trickster?