Musings on Shadowdancers

[Bobbydean]

Been having some various thoughts and questions about Shadow Dancers in BG. Feel free to share your thoughts.

1. Are Shadow Daze and Summon Shadow any good? I know SD has some good stuff going for it, HIPS, Def Roll, Uncanny Dodge, etc. On BG it says that Shadow Daze and Summon shadow are enhanced somehow, just curious if they're of any use on BG, especially for a dex based character - I remember in NWN both feats were near useless.

2. Should SD's have more "in class" skills? Not more skill points per se, but I can imagine it would be frustrating being an Rogue or Assassin that have UMD, Open Lock, etc and want to continue that class style but then SD misses out on a lot of those - seems that they should have same class skills as Assassin at least.

3. Should requirements be raised even more for SD's? I like that Dex 19 is required, wondering if the requirements should be even more stringent.

Anyway these were just some thoughts I had so figured I'd write them down and see what people think.

[Terankar]

If you are going for max SD levels, I would go for a defensive build. You can be nearly unkillable in terms of AC and be able to use the shadows as a true shadowdancer.

[chad878262]

1. Are Shadow Daze and Summon Shadow any good? I know SD has some good stuff going for it, HIPS, Def Roll, Uncanny Dodge, etc. On BG it says that Shadow Daze and Summon shadow are enhanced somehow, just curious if they're of any use on BG, especially for a dex based character - I remember in NWN both feats were near useless.

Daze doesn't proc sneak attacks, but it does keep enemies from attacking you. A build with 10 levels of Shadow Dancer with 30 DEX will have a DC30 Shadow Daze which isn't too bad. It's only once per day so not a good as it could be. If any improvements were to be made to try and make going SD for more levels (which is not needed) they could make turn this in to a cooldown like what was done for divine wrath on Divine Champions which would be a nice addition to allow more use out of it. The shadow is improved on BG iirc, but it is still not very strong. Still can be useful to take aggro off of you and allow you to proc sneak attacks for a bit.

2. Should SD's have more "in class" skills? Not more skill points per se, but I can imagine it would be frustrating being an Rogue or Assassin that have UMD, Open Lock, etc and want to continue that class style but then SD misses out on a lot of those - seems that they should have same class skills as Assassin at least.

Shadow Dancer is not really a 'rogue' PRC, specifically. Obviously it helps rogues due to HiPS, but I don't think it is an issue that they don't get disable device or open locks and there'd be no reason to give them UMD. In addition, giving UMD as a class skill would open up maxing UMD for many non-rogue builds that dip SD for HiPS cheese (HiPS mages and Weapon Master/Frenzied Berserker builds). So in my opinion their skill list should be left alone.

3. Should requirements be raised even more for SD's? I like that Dex 19 is required, wondering if the requirements should be even more stringent.

It depends on the goal. Note that raising the DEX requirement to say 21 would cause problems for many builds that aren't OP and make some sense as SD's, not just HiPS mages and/or WM/FB builds. Swashbuckler duelists come to mind as they would tend to leave DEX at 19 or stop at 20 while maxing INT. Finally, for non-DEX bonus races it may be difficult to hit 21 DEX in time to take SD while still meeting 3b20 requirements. As to the skill requirements, again it depends on the goal. If you are trying to force SD's to take a class/PRC with hide/move silently and tumble as class skills than sure you could increase the requirement. This would cause HiPS mages to lose additional caster levels and require F/WM/FB/SD to drop either WM or FB to get another class with stealth/tumble class skills so they could qualify within 3b20. As it stands the requirement of 10 in Hide skill means that such builds can't take SD until level 18. Therefore increasing the skill requirements above 10 would effectively make those builds illegal, while simply increasing move silently and tumble requirement to 10, matching the hide requirement would simply make them cost more skill points (unless they take able learner).

Of course taking away such 'toys' from players is in general not going to make those players happy. While HiPS mages are strong, they are no more strong than other builds, some that do not use HiPS at all. As to WM/FB builds, they are pretty strong in PvE, but heavily reliant on that HiPS due to terrible will saves and low-ish AC. In PvP there are several ways to make them not much of a threat. Finally, this would be quite a pain from an administrative perspective since you effectively would be requiring rebuilds of any PCs that are no longer legal within the new requirements you set for the class. So again, what would the goal be that you would be trying to accomplish with such a change?

[Bobbydean]

1. Are Shadow Daze and Summon Shadow any good? I know SD has some good stuff going for it, HIPS, Def Roll, Uncanny Dodge, etc. On BG it says that Shadow Daze and Summon shadow are enhanced somehow, just curious if they're of any use on BG, especially for a dex based character - I remember in NWN both feats were near useless.

Daze doesn't proc sneak attacks, but it does keep enemies from attacking you. A build with 10 levels of Shadow Dancer with 30 DEX will have a DC30 Shadow Daze which isn't too bad. It's only once per day so not a good as it could be. If any improvements were to be made to try and make going SD for more levels (which is not needed) they could make turn this in to a cooldown like what was done for divine wrath on Divine Champions which would be a nice addition to allow more use out of it. The shadow is improved on BG iirc, but it is still not very strong. Still can be useful to take aggro off of you and allow you to proc sneak attacks for a bit.

2. Should SD's have more "in class" skills? Not more skill points per se, but I can imagine it would be frustrating being an Rogue or Assassin that have UMD, Open Lock, etc and want to continue that class style but then SD misses out on a lot of those - seems that they should have same class skills as Assassin at least.

Shadow Dancer is not really a 'rogue' PRC, specifically. Obviously it helps rogues due to HiPS, but I don't think it is an issue that they don't get disable device or open locks and there'd be no reason to give them UMD. In addition, giving UMD as a class skill would open up maxing UMD for many non-rogue builds that dip SD for HiPS cheese (HiPS mages and Weapon Master/Frenzied Berserker builds). So in my opinion their skill list should be left alone.

3. Should requirements be raised even more for SD's? I like that Dex 19 is required, wondering if the requirements should be even more stringent.

It depends on the goal. Note that raising the DEX requirement to say 21 would cause problems for many builds that aren't OP and make some sense as SD's, not just HiPS mages and/or WM/FB builds. Swashbuckler duelists come to mind as they would tend to leave DEX at 19 or stop at 20 while maxing INT. Finally, for non-DEX bonus races it may be difficult to hit 21 DEX in time to take SD while still meeting 3b20 requirements. As to the skill requirements, again it depends on the goal. If you are trying to force SD's to take a class/PRC with hide/move silently and tumble as class skills than sure you could increase the requirement. This would cause HiPS mages to lose additional caster levels and require F/WM/FB/SD to drop either WM or FB to get another class with stealth/tumble class skills so they could qualify within 3b20. As it stands the requirement of 10 in Hide skill means that such builds can't take SD until level 18. Therefore increasing the skill requirements above 10 would effectively make those builds illegal, while simply increasing move silently and tumble requirement to 10, matching the hide requirement would simply make them cost more skill points (unless they take able learner).

Of course taking away such 'toys' from players is in general not going to make those players happy. While HiPS mages are strong, they are no more strong than other builds, some that do not use HiPS at all. As to WM/FB builds, they are pretty strong in PvE, but heavily reliant on that HiPS due to terrible will saves and low-ish AC. In PvP there are several ways to make them not much of a threat. Finally, this would be quite a pain from an administrative perspective since you effectively would be requiring rebuilds of any PCs that are no longer legal within the new requirements you set for the class. So again, what would the goal be that you would be trying to accomplish with such a change?

Thanks for providing your thoughts! My intention isn't to say this is how things have to be, but I enjoy discussing opinions. I guess here's my take on your comments.

1. Haven't ever gotten that far in leveling an SD, but I guess it would be nice if shadow was stronger, and daze allowed more instances. Seems like SD needs "something" more than HIPS to make it a class that stands on it's own all the way to Level 10. Oh well.

2. I take your point on UMD not needed. Open lock and disable device feel like kinda skills I would imagine a SD to have, just way I envision the class.

3. Well, there is no goal here except to have an enjoyable discussion. But I guess for argument's sake the goal would be to balance the class from the beginning if there weren't already player builds that use HIPS heavily. If that were the goal, then maybe raising the hide and MS threshold makes sense mechanically and RP wise (if you can enter the shadow domain, you better be pretty darn competent with hiding, right?). However, I agree the administrative overhead and embedded player base makes this impractical, so it's just an exercise in discussion.

[Blackman D]

1. Haven't ever gotten that far in leveling an SD, but I guess it would be nice if shadow was stronger, and daze allowed more instances. Seems like SD needs "something" more than HIPS to make it a class that stands on it's own all the way to Level 10. Oh well.

...its the easiest path to epic dodge which is arguably the strongest feat in the game, no one goes 10 SD without getting epic dodge, granted there are not that many that do go all the way to 10 but still

[Bobbydean]

1. Haven't ever gotten that far in leveling an SD, but I guess it would be nice if shadow was stronger, and daze allowed more instances. Seems like SD needs "something" more than HIPS to make it a class that stands on it's own all the way to Level 10. Oh well.

...its the easiest path to epic dodge which is arguably the strongest feat in the game, no one goes 10 SD without getting epic dodge, granted there are not that many that do go all the way to 10 but still

Exactly, people tend to use the class as a door to a that feat, not as a class identity in itself. I feel the class is missing it's own appeal to draw people to want to actually "be" shadowdancers rather than a doorway to HIPS and eventually Epic Dodge.

[Blackman D]

well SD is a defensive class, which not a lot of people build for and then its further restricted by high dex

but there is very little you can do to the class to make it more appealing without changing its role and giving to more offensive power or making it even stronger and giving to too much defensive power

[Hoihe]

The level 10 teleportation perk is pretty great.

Not sure how it works these days - does it have a cooldown? Is it once per day?

One thing I really enjoy doing is using Dimension Door to always be in an ideal location.

If the Shadow Jump had a CD or limited used, perhaps it could be buffed somewhat?

[Blackman D]

from what i remember last it was a point and click with a 5 min cd, which givin it was changed from marking locations to point and click there is nothing wrong with the cooldown

point and click is much more useful since the marking location version meant that you could only use it as an escape, now you can use it to get to other places so the cooldown prevents an abuse of excessive jumping around

[Tanlaus]

from what i remember last it was a point and click with a 5 min cd, which givin it was changed from marking locations to point and click there is nothing wrong with the cooldown

point and click is much more useful since the marking location version meant that you could only use it as an escape, now you can use it to get to other places so the cooldown prevents an abuse of excessive jumping around

My two cents on shadow dancer love...

1) Put daze on a timer. It would still be useless to people who only dip but useful for people who take the class to max level. Still not as good as an assassin’s stun but potentially useful nonetheless.

2) shorten the timer on the teleport. It’s nice to be able to jump to ranged opponents in the fly, or possibly escape from a high spot opponent. But the cool down keeps it from being used even once a fight.

Even if the cool down we’re 1 minute or 2 minutes would it be abusable? I know personally I would use it more but not sure how I could abuse it.

With assassins also having HiPS I feel like the teleport is almost more the shadow dancer’s signature ability. Also it’s a change that does nothing for class dippers.

This actually just occurred to me when I noticed the cool down for Feystep on the new Feytouched class is 17 rounds which is 1:42 vs 5 minutes for a shadow jump.... I call shenanigans!!!

3) Give the shadow more points in hide and move silently. It lasts longer and is more useful when you can pick and choose your fights. Doesn’t really make him stronger but does allow you to play more tactically.

Also, it’s a shadow, it should be able to hide pretty well.

[chad878262]

1) Put daze on a timer. It would still be useless to people who only dip but useful for people who take the class to max level. Still not as good as an assassin’s stun but potentially useful nonetheless.

I would tend to agree. DC only gets really good if going deep in to DC and if it is a concern the timer can be based upon level (5 minutes at 3, 4 minutes at 6, 3 minutes at 9, 2 minutes at 10 just for example).

2) shorten the timer on the teleport. It’s nice to be able to jump to ranged opponents in the fly, or possibly escape from a high spot opponent. But the cool down keeps it from being used even once a fight.

Even if the cool down we’re 1 minute or 2 minutes would it be abusable? I know personally I would use it more but not sure how I could abuse it.

With assassins also having HiPS I feel like the teleport is almost more the shadow dancer’s signature ability. Also it’s a change that does nothing for class dippers.

This actually just occurred to me when I noticed the cool down for Feystep on the new Feytouched class is 17 rounds which is 1:42 vs 5 minutes for a shadow jump.... I call shenanigans!!!

I would also tend to agree here. Going to SD10 ain't a power build and their timer on the dimension door mechanic should not be any longer than ki step (2 minutes?) That said I think all of the timers on dimension door should be longer, more aligned with Shadow Dancer, but doubtful we'd see that route taken. It is strange that of all the abilities that allow for dimension door shadow dancer is the class that got the longest timer... *shrug*

3) Give the shadow more points in hide and move silently. It lasts longer and is more useful when you can pick and choose your fights. Doesn’t really make him stronger but does allow you to play more tactically.

Also a great idea. Well thought out points Tanlaus.

[Tanlaus]

1) Put daze on a timer. It would still be useless to people who only dip but useful for people who take the class to max level. Still not as good as an assassin’s stun but potentially useful nonetheless.

I would tend to agree. DC only gets really good if going deep in to DC and if it is a concern the timer can be based upon level (5 minutes at 3, 4 minutes at 6, 3 minutes at 9, 2 minutes at 10 just for example).

2) shorten the timer on the teleport. It’s nice to be able to jump to ranged opponents in the fly, or possibly escape from a high spot opponent. But the cool down keeps it from being used even once a fight.

Even if the cool down we’re 1 minute or 2 minutes would it be abusable? I know personally I would use it more but not sure how I could abuse it.

With assassins also having HiPS I feel like the teleport is almost more the shadow dancer’s signature ability. Also it’s a change that does nothing for class dippers.

This actually just occurred to me when I noticed the cool down for Feystep on the new Feytouched class is 17 rounds which is 1:42 vs 5 minutes for a shadow jump.... I call shenanigans!!!

I would also tend to agree here. Going to SD10 ain't a power build and their timer on the dimension door mechanic should not be any longer than ki step (2 minutes?) That said I think all of the timers on dimension door should be longer, more aligned with Shadow Dancer, but doubtful we'd see that route taken. It is strange that of all the abilities that allow for dimension door shadow dancer is the class that got the longest timer... *shrug*

3) Give the shadow more points in hide and move silently. It lasts longer and is more useful when you can pick and choose your fights. Doesn’t really make him stronger but does allow you to play more tactically.

Also a great idea. Well thought out points Tanlaus.

Thanks Chad. Actually I started playing this class after exchanging some posts with you and while it’s not remotely a power build It’s super fun to play and I love the RP around it.

Is there an official section to bring these ideas up to the development team?

Be nice to see a little love.

[Stolcor]

Thanks Chad. Actually I started playing this class after exchanging some posts with you and while it’s not remotely a power build It’s super fun to play and I love the RP around it.

Is there an official section to bring these ideas up to the development team?

Be nice to see a little love.

I believe you're looking for this forum: viewforum.php?f=443

[Tanlaus]

Thanks Chad. Actually I started playing this class after exchanging some posts with you and while it’s not remotely a power build It’s super fun to play and I love the RP around it.

Is there an official section to bring these ideas up to the development team?

Be nice to see a little love.

I believe you're looking for this forum: viewforum.php?f=443

Thanks.

I’ve posted a few things there that just seem to get lost. But might be worth trying again.