Language and PG13

[Stolcor]

What are the limits of pg13 language here? I've noticed an uptick in the use of the F word, which, beyond a single use, is considered *not* pg13 for US movie standards.

I personally hate the word in real life, to be honest, but I also find it discordant with the setting. The rules stipulate setting-appropriate curse words, but don't explicitly forbid the F word (though the Forum rules do).

What is the policy? And can that be made clearer in the rules?

[chad878262]

Beyond the obvious fact that they shouldn't be blasting F bombs from a rating standpoint, that and other Earth language curses are not lore appropriate for the Forgotten Realms. Please see this thread for some alternatives you could suggest for IC usage. viewtopic.php?f=421&t=71401

My suggestion is to politely let folks know this is a PG13 server and direct them to the above link. if it continues unfortunately all you can do is screen shot and report them to the DM team.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

It's hard to precisely define the acceptable ammount of F-bombardment, but from my experience the vast majority of players is indifferent about f-swearing (even excessive). If someone tells you OOCly that swearing makes them uncomfortable, though, it's fair to stop or reduce its ammount. If there's a line it's probably here.

Another important thing about profanity on the server is its context. If you use it to add your character flavor or express frustration it's completely fine. If you use it in a more literal sense (as sexual innuendo or assault, for example), you'll quickly get in trouble.

[Rinzler]

Technically, you are allowed one (1) "f-bomb" per PG-13 movie in the United States

In all seriousness, I don't really curse IC as it's kind of awkward. I even feel awkward typing things that feel too "modern" if that makes sense.

[Ambaryerno]

Beyond the obvious fact that they shouldn't be blasting F bombs from a rating standpoint, that and other Earth language curses are not lore appropriate for the Forgotten Realms. Please see this thread for some alternatives you could suggest for IC usage. viewtopic.php?f=421&t=71401

My suggestion is to politely let folks know this is a PG13 server and direct them to the above link. if it continues unfortunately all you can do is screen shot and report them to the DM team.

I would argue as a counterpoint that it may be difficult to determine whether or not an IRL curse would be lore appropriate or not, simply because the origins are so obscure, complicated by numerous false etymologies and myths, (IE, the popular myth that "F--- you!" originated with English archers and derived from "pluck yew") that it can be very difficult to determine WHERE they actually came from.

The F-bomb ITSELF is an interesting example because it's not even clear WHEN it became vulgar or inappropriate in the first place. Even its etymology is uncertain (it appears to be Germanic in origin, and the sexual connotation may have been its original meaning). The earliest confirmed written occurrence was in Flen flyys (15th century, though there may be an earlier written example dating to the 13th) but it's not known whether it was considered a naughty word or not. It's not even known WHY it's come to be recognized as profane. It literally originated as an early Germanic verb for boinking (and possibly in its even more primitive forms to strike something. Which certainly still fits the sexual context if you want to talk about tapping that @$$).

So while some religious or cultural-specific swears (based on names of saints, cultural practices, etc.) could be clearly ruled out in settings where that religion doesn't exist (fun fact: I'm rewriting/editing one of my books and as part of my world building I'm completely redescribing the layout of a church in my setting, because the popular conception of a church is derived from the shape of a Cross. In a setting in which there was no Crucifixion churches would be unlikely to have that floorplan) profanity that derives from the language itself is a much more complicated matter. And since English serves as a stand-in for Common in the FR setting some IRL swears WOULD fit in that context.

[Snarfy]

I would argue as a counterpoint that it may be difficult to determine whether or not an IRL curse would be lore appropriate or not...

Here's how I look at it: In the many years that I've played D&D related games, I can't think of a single instance where modern day curse words were used. Zero... well, other than by players on BGTSCC. My knowledge of Sword Coast lore and it's setting is, admittedly, pretty much limited to my experiences playing the vast array of PG-13 rated Baldurs' Gate games though.

That being said, I have a hard time believing that the F-bomb would be something so commonly uttered in Faerun as it is in the real world, or on the server... which is probably only half as much usage as the word "sh*t" sees(that word, from what I can tell, is used far more commonly on BG).

I find both pretty jarring to read, to be honest. And this is coming from someone who cusses like an angry sailor in every day RL speak.

[zhazz]

I would argue that PG-13 is not a good source for knowing what goes and what doesn't. Every movie, tv-show, anime, and computer game use it differently.

Just take a look at The Seven Deadly Sins on Netflix, which is rated PG-13. It has excessive swearing, graphic lewd moments, excessive horror and violence scenes, and much much more.

It is possible to read through the PG-13 definition, and reach one understanding. Then watch a bunch of PG-13 rated content on youtube and streaming services to reach a completely different understanding.

That being said, the PG-13 definition, and what is written here on the forums in the rules section, is the best we can do, without making explicit rulings for every little detail.

I think the following is a good guideline for language, however:

Another important thing about profanity on the server is its context. If you use it to add your character flavor or express frustration it's completely fine. If you use it in a more literal sense (as sexual innuendo or assault, for example), you'll quickly get in trouble.

Watching a situation go from bad to worse, where you character knows that they are in trouble now, is what I would consider a proper and valid moment to use an expletive, such as the F-word. Not so when talking and drinking at a campfire or at an inn/tavern. And even when used, it shouldn't become a thing that happen often.

[Ambaryerno]

I would argue as a counterpoint that it may be difficult to determine whether or not an IRL curse would be lore appropriate or not...

Here's how I look at it: In the many years that I've played D&D related games, I can't think of a single instance where modern day curse words were used. Zero... well, other than by players on BGTSCC. My knowledge of Sword Coast lore and it's setting is, admittedly, pretty much limited to my experiences playing the vast array of PG-13 rated Baldurs' Gate games though.

That being said, I have a hard time believing that the F-bomb would be something so commonly uttered in Faerun as it is in the real world, or on the server... which is probably only half as much usage as the word "sh*t" sees(that word, from what I can tell, is used far more commonly on BG).

I find both pretty jarring to read, to be honest. And this is coming from someone who cusses like an angry sailor in every day RL speak.

I think a lot of that has to do with the faux-Medievalism that strongly defines DnD, especially the FR setting. ESPECIALLY a lot of the misconceptions about the Middle Ages that found its way into the game (6lb longswords, etc.) People have a perception of what the idea SHOULD be like ("Unlike some other Robin Hoods, *I* can speak with an English accent...." even though the English accent didn't EXIST in the 12th Century). You see it in historical works today with people complaining about the use of modern profanity even when those swear words actually DO date to that period in that context.

[Rhifox]

Yes, you don't normally hear IRL curses in DnD. But it's not because 'the setting!'. It's because of censorship. Most "lore appropriate" curses are far, far more jarring in my mind, because in many cases they're clearly hamfisted insertions made solely for the purpose of censorship. The censorship is what is immersion breaking to me, not "IRL curse words." Especially with how many are invented for one scene and then never used again, so there's dozens of them with few given any consistency within the setting that would actually make them stand as real words (I'd point to 'frak' from BSG as a much better example of an in-universe curse. It is elevated up and used regularly to the point it clearly becomes part of the setting's language, still used in an otherwise mature setting, existing for flavor instead of censorship).

As Ambaryerno said, many IRL curses were around in medieval times and ergo are not modern words. They fit perfectly well within a medieval setting like FR. And, mind, neither the curse words nor any other word we say in English is actually what any of us are really saying because neither actually exist within the setting. Common only looks English to us for the sake of us being able to understand it. Whatever the actual Common word for 'the' is, it is translated to the for us. Ergo, also, whichever word is the actual Common word for 'shit' is translated to 'shit' for us, because that's the word that makes sense and carries the right tone for what is being said for us.

Consider "blast it," on the other hand. While I don't know the etymology of "blast it" as an expletive, so maybe it has older roots, but it's one that feels so clearly dated to 20th century pop culture. Yet it's supposedly "lore appropriate."

I use some FR curses where they make sense. "Knife ears," and so on. I use "bloody X" or whatever at other times (because that is more PG13 appropriate and is also a verified 'FR curse'). But I do drop the occasional F-bomb where it makes sense. PG13 as a rating allows for those words to be used occasionally. I try not to go overboard because it is clearly a sore point for some people, so I try to use it sparingly, but I don't entirely avoid it because, for me, it makes no sense to do so.

Also, I don't see anyone complaining about people using much more setting inappropriate words, like psychotropic or subconscious or any number of other modern medical/scientific parlance. If people want to complain about language that breaks the setting, those, and the scientific understanding that lies behind those, are what does it.

[Rhifox]

ESPECIALLY a lot of the misconceptions about the Middle Ages that found its way into the game (6lb longswords, etc.)

6lb one-handed longswords at that.

And studded leather. *gags*

[Ambaryerno]

ESPECIALLY a lot of the misconceptions about the Middle Ages that found its way into the game (6lb longswords, etc.)

6lb one-handed longswords at that.

And studded leather. *gags*

Heck, just the fact that longswords ARE one-handed (don't get me started on the bastard sword...)

[cosmic ray]

Forgotten Realms has a list of made-up obscenities simply because its American creators were aware of the puritan character of American culture. If not for that, real-world obscenities would fit right in, as the rest of the English language fits right in.

As for etymologies, there should be no confusion at all with folk etymologies. The correct place to look up a word's etymology is an etymology dictionary. Ignore all other sources, unless they are citing such a dictionary. Linguists have difficulties researching these things, of course, and there are words of obscure or even unkown origin, but they are scientists and they are constantly working on this to find out more.

The word "f-", for instance, dates back centuries in English, making it much older and far more appropriate for a pseudo-medieval setting like the Forgotten Realms than "awesome" as used in the 1980s teenage sense for a synonym for "good", but I don't see anyone complaining about that blight of a word, the use of which makes me pour salt in my eyes, be it in real life or during RP.

The word "a---" used to be the proper Anglo-saxon word for that part of the body until the period of Norman-french domination, so that "obscenity" is far more period-accurate than any modern euphemism you can think of.

Sources:
https://www.etymonline.com/word/(do-me)#etymonline_v_14228
https://www.etymonline.com/word/awesome ... ne_v_26801
https://www.etymonline.com/word/arse#etymonline_v_17033

There are many more words that we could look into, but if we start going down this road, we'll find out we can't use nearly all of the words and expressions we use, as modern 21st century English is obviously inaccurate to evoke anything inspired by the Middle Ages, and the fact that only obscenities warrant this discussion strictly boils down to puritanism.

When you watch a film about ancient Rome, do you really expect the actors to become fluent in Classical Latin and Vulgar Latin too?

Anyway, American PG13 films allow one use of "f-", it is said; seeing as the average film nowadays has a length of about two hours, I'd say we should be good to say "f-" once every two hours of roleplay or so.

[ajcolt]

FYI: In medieval times most people weren't too concerned with vulgar slang. They'd use vulgar terms to name the streets that housed and the privies themselves. They avoided profane curses that took the name of God or otherwise related to religion. Vulgarity in every day conversation was not considered profane.

As for the rule concerning language on the server, it's not very clear to me. I know my character uses damnnation on occasion because it feels fitting and immersive. I'm probably going to have her use sard, which was considered vulgar centuries ago but had fallen out of popularity.

[Stolcor]

Watching a situation go from bad to worse, where you character knows that they are in trouble now, is what I would consider a proper and valid moment to use an expletive, such as the F-word. Not so when talking and drinking at a campfire or at an inn/tavern. And even when used, it shouldn't become a thing that happen often.

This is precisely where I see it, in casual conversation at the fire or the inn, with some characters using it with startling regularity. As I've already said, I hate the word and it's frequent use in almost any context, not just the game, generally lowers the quality of an experience for me. I happen to have a particularly high regard for human sexuality and it's use as a curse word, while not as serious, comes across much like religious swears do to the devout, to which I also belong. Fortunately, fantasy religion allows for fantasy religious swears, which is not jarring so I don't have that problem often.

I also recognize that my sensibilities are not the standard here, so I haven't corrected anyone. Hence my question about actual policy. To my mind PG13 would preclude its use in all but the rarest of circumstances, but if that is *not* the standard of the server, then I will deal with it much like I deal with it in real life: grin and bear it. I just wish I had to do that less in a place I turn to for recreation. The PG13 standard is one reason I like this server: entertainment without excess vulgarity.

[Stolcor]

Also, I don't see anyone complaining about people using much more setting inappropriate words, like psychotropic or subconscious or any number of other modern medical/scientific parlance. If people want to complain about language that breaks the setting, those, and the scientific understanding that lies behind those, are what does it.

It's kind of part of the paradox of culture and language. It literally affects the way we think. We can only do so much to step outside our culture and language to evaluate it because it's part of the internal process of how we think. "subconscious" is so written into how we conceive of the human mind (now) that it's almost jarring not to include it at least on some level, even if you avoid the word.

Psychotropic is an interesting point. I seem to recall some rules about drug usage in-game and it's reference to the PG13. Something about not using RL drug references, but that vague allusions "setting-appropriate" drugs are tolerated. Where does pyschotropic fall? Not sure.

To your overall point, though, a lot of those medical/scientific terms are very infrequent in my experience and some of them, like "subconscious" are so generic in our cultural context that they don't easily stand out as setting inappropriate. Hence no complaint, no need to issue rules.

Curse words, however, are polarizing. Always have been, always will be. I don't buy the argument about the medieval world not caring - different words and standards, but there were things you didn't say to the king or the bishop. Because curse words are naturally more noticeable/polarizing, they get more attention from rules. I agree we can't nitpick and rule on every little detail, but I'm clearly not alone in thinking certain curse words are inappropriate for PG13 and/or lore propriety. If I had to pick, I'd put more weight on the PG13 point anyway.