Epic Resilience Feat

[qwertyh88]

In the description, the feat reads:
You no longer automatically fail saving throws on a roll of 1. Of course, you will still fail the save if your result fails to equal or beat the DC.

However, I'm reading wiki:

Note on Automatic Failure and Success: Automatic Failure for a reflex save or a will save actually succeeds although the message to the player states *failure*.
Which I have experienced in the past for some traps...

So is Epic Resilience essentially a poor man's steadfast determination? --one that cost an extra feat to get?

[Bobthehero]

Essentially, yes. It's only good on a Man At Arms because they get the feat for free.

[izzul]

Steadfast = good on high CON(around 18-24 CON) build that increases will saves and only fort saves from mobs will auto success if you roll a 1(meaning you will die if you roll 1 without steadfast)

Epic Resilience = good on non high CON build(especially if focusing on STR or DEX) that already has high will and fortitude and reflex saves. (ex: Annointed Knight, Dwarven Defender, Dragon warrior, Divine Champion that have extra feats to spare)

Steadfast = CON focus with low will saves
Epic Resilience = non CON focus with high saves

[qwertyh88]

My point was:

"Note on Automatic Failure and Success: Automatic Failure for a reflex save or a will save actually succeeds although the message to the player states *failure*.
Which I have experienced in the past for some traps..."

So it seems there is no autofailure on rolls of 1 for reflex and will save as long as the roll is greater than the DC.

If wiki is right..EPIC resilience is never going to be useful...unless it's a free feat given by Man-at-Arms.

[Blackman D]

if your question is can you actually fail a save on a 1 without it? then the answer is yes

the feats, both ER and SD, basically only work on will and fort saves tho (SD is broken and is not suppose to work on will but it does - which is why ER isnt that great), reflex can fail but it seems like evasion is what breaks it to not fail on 1s, which most builds that have a high reflex tend to have, i have some with high saves but neither evasion, SD or ER and they have failed on 1s plenty

and i have a hin with a 30 base reflex and improved evasion, have rolled a 1 a few times and still never fail the save, and she does not have SD or ER

that said, the general consensus is that you shouldnt plan builds around broken feats - but iirc they are also hardcoded and past attempts to fix them have not worked

but if it does happen, it is something that they would not give RCRs for everyone trying to change something they have been exploiting in its broken state for

[qwertyh88]

if your question is can you actually fail a save on a 1 without it? then the answer is yes

the feats, both ER and SD, basically only work on will and fort saves tho (SD is broken and is not suppose to work on will but it does - which is why ER isnt that great), reflex can fail but it seems like evasion is what breaks it to not fail on 1s, which most builds that have a high reflex tend to have, i have some with high saves but neither evasion, SD or ER and they have failed on 1s plenty

and i have a hin with a 30 base reflex and improved evasion, have rolled a 1 a few times and still never fail the save, and she does not have SD or ER

that said, the general consensus is that you shouldnt plan builds around broken feats - but iirc they are also hardcoded and past attempts to fix them have not worked

but if it does happen, it is something that they would not give RCRs for everyone trying to change something they have been exploiting in its broken state for

Great context. I guess it makes sense why my ranger with evasion and SD never failed a save on 1s ever.


But I was really looking for that save on the reflex too. Just to confirm:

My paladin doesn't have evasion but high reflex so a 1 roll would fail even though he has ER?

[Blackman D]

theoretically yes? ive never known a non dex build with high saves to say anything about rolling a 1 and not failing, like a FS that has all high saves, but there is also nothing that says ER itself is broken to make you still pass if you are below the DC

[DaloLorn]

The way it's documented on both the NWN2 and BG wikis, saving throws and autopass/autofail work like this:

• Autopass is a thing for all saving throws. If you roll a 20, then it doesn't matter what the DC is - you'll pass. This means there's always at least a 5% chance of passing any saving throw whatsoever.
• Fortitude can autofail by rolling a 1. This means there's always at least a 5% chance of failing a Fortitude saving throw, but it can be negated by taking the Steadfast Determination or Epic Resilience feats. (Obviously, this will still require you to have enough Fortitude to brute-force your way through the DC.)
• Reflex cannot autofail. The UI will always display a failure when rolling a 1, but you can bring your Reflex saves up high enough to guarantee saving in some situations.
• Will, like Reflex, cannot autofail.

If there is any truth to that information - and I'm inclined to believe there is, though I would require some help in order to gather evidence - then the difference between Steadfast Determination and Epic Resilience is twofold:

• Epic Resilience requires Epic Toughness, which itself requires Toughness - which is also a prerequisite for Steadfast Determination. If you weren't planning on taking Epic Toughness, this means you need to spend one more feat to get Epic Resilience. If not, it is irrelevant.
• Steadfast Determination allows you to add your CON or WIS modifier, whichever is higher, to your Will save. Normally, your WIS modifier is always added to your Will save. If your CON is higher than your WIS, this provides a clear statistical advantage to taking Steadfast Determination instead of Epic Resilience. If not, it is irrelevant.

From this, we can infer that although Steadfast Determination is never worse than Epic Resilience, there are certain builds where the distinction between them is one without a measurable difference.

[chad878262]

From this, we can infer that although Steadfast Determination is never worse than Epic Resilience, there are certain builds where the distinction between them is one without a measurable difference.

The measurable difference of course is that Steadfast requires spending two pre-epic feats (toughness/steadfast) while epic resilience requires one pre-epic and two epic feats (toughness/epic toughness/epic resilience) so even if WIS is higher than CON, from a cost/benefit standpoint it is clear which one is 'cheaper' for effectively getting the same thing. Of course Epic Toughness is still +30 HP, but it is still a cost that you would not have to spend to get Steadfast.

[DaloLorn]

From this, we can infer that although Steadfast Determination is never worse than Epic Resilience, there are certain builds where the distinction between them is one without a measurable difference.

The measurable difference of course is that Steadfast requires spending two pre-epic feats (toughness/steadfast) while epic resilience requires one pre-epic and two epic feats (toughness/epic toughness/epic resilience) so even if WIS is higher than CON, from a cost/benefit standpoint it is clear which one is 'cheaper' for effectively getting the same thing. Of course Epic Toughness is still +30 HP, but it is still a cost that you would not have to spend to get Steadfast.

A cost which I mentioned that some builds would be paying anyway.

That being said, the epic feat spent for Epic Resilience is always more expensive than the pre-epic spent for Steadfast Determination... which is a point I overlooked in my earlier analysis.