Thieves' Cant

[Blackbird]

Should Guild Thief and Thief Acrobat receive this language on 1st class level if they don't already have it via rogue? One is, quite literally, assumed to be part of a thieves' guild and the other is described as being the "second-story man" for heists.

[c2k]

Thief Acrobat already gives a lot. IMO, I think Dex Fighters would opt for this class more than actual rogue builds.

And if you are taking Guild Thief, you probably have rogue levels already,

[Blackbird]

Thief Acrobat already gives a lot. IMO, I think Dex Fighters would opt for this class more than actual rogue builds.

And if you are taking Guild Thief, you probably have rogue levels already,

Thief Acrobat requires three feats and 10 skill points in Escape Artist (and Tumble, but that's a good grab already). One of those feats is also Evasion, so it's not readily available to a DEX Fighter without an additional dip.

Guild Thief is much less stringent in its reqs, requiring only a few skill points and the Stealthy feat. Plenty of other classes interested in thieving could get away with this like an illusionist Wizard who also dips Arcane Trickster.

Either way, what's the harm in giving a thematically appropriate language to either of them? It's just an RP booster and not a bad one either, as far as I can tell based on the class lore.

[Blackman D]

as much hate as their generally is for sneaks, thieves cant has been surprisingly protected as a niche for rogues to communicate

while you can easily argue one would learn it even if you dont take rogue as your lvl 1 class (which i think was fixed to grant it at later levels but i dont remember), it has been shot down before expanding it to most others like assassins

you could give it to every class that you think it would make since for, but then everyone and their grandmothers would have it and no one would want to bother using it because everyone would know what you are doing

i blame all the damn assassins (as if i dont have 2 of my own )

[c2k]

Thief Acrobat already gives a lot. IMO, I think Dex Fighters would opt for this class more than actual rogue builds.

And if you are taking Guild Thief, you probably have rogue levels already,

Thief Acrobat requires three feats and 10 skill points in Escape Artist (and Tumble, but that's a good grab already). One of those feats is also Evasion, so it's not readily available to a DEX Fighter without an additional dip.

Guild Thief is much less stringent in its reqs, requiring only a few skill points and the Stealthy feat. Plenty of other classes interested in thieving could get away with this like an illusionist Wizard who also dips Arcane Trickster.

Either way, what's the harm in giving a thematically appropriate language to either of them? It's just an RP booster and not a bad one either, as far as I can tell based on the class lore.

Every Dex fighter I've seen or built does have evasion. Its one of those feats that is spammed on too many classes. Even Swashbucklers get it now if you want to build that way. And Thief Acrobat is a High BAB way to get to Improved Evasion, because why wouldn't a Dex Fighter want Epic Dodge.

A 3 level dip into Guild Thief doesn't beat a 3 level dip into Rogue, because Evasion. Sure, you can build that way, but you will be a weaker build than the rogue dip.

[chad878262]

Any character can learn thieves cant. If you rp learning it, and can show that over time a dm can grant you the language.

[zhazz]

I am honestly not even sure why Thieves's Cant exists a language in the first place. Unlike Drowsign it isn't an actual language. Rather it's a collection of conversational and body language cues, which is used to relate information to other thieves, without others knowing about it.

For example

During a conversation with a jewelry merchant, Billy knows that a friend of his, Fred, is watching. They are going to rob the merchant, and Billy is the guy sent in to gather information and distract the merchant. While talking with the merchant Billy scans the store, looking for possible valuables that are easy to get. Spotting what appears to be a valuable earring, Billy signals to Fred that he should take a closer look, and grab it. Here's what Billy does to signal this.

"Last night I had had an argument with my girlfriend, and I want to make it up to her, so she doesn't kick me out the door.I heard that you have some great necklaces with precious gemstones. Perhaps you can be of help?" *As Billy talks with the merchant, he deliberately scratches the left side of his neck, appearing nervous. He does so with two fingers only, at the same time he says the word heard. While the merchant is busy showing him a fine necklace, Billy shifts his weight onto his right foot, and turns his left foot out, and asks.* "That looks good. How much does it cost?" *While running his hand through his hair, as if worried it might be too expensive.*

Door = entrance/exit
Heard = earring/noise/listen
Left side of his neck = look to the left
Two fingers = two/count twice/double
Turns his left foot out = be alert/danger/get ready to move
Hand through his hair = move/leave/go now

Appearing as if just looking around, Fred keeps an eye on Billy, and quickly understands what is wanted of him:
Grab the second ring from the entrance, when I tell you to. <Brief pause> Grab it now.

That is how Thieves' Cant works. It's messages within messages, built upon layers of previously agreed upon signals, which thieves are taught at some point in their career. It is not, as it is depicted in the game, an actual language of gibberish.

Maybe if the language system could be reworked so only those, who actually knows Thieves' Cant, and Drowsign for that matter, will see the message at all. Rather than everyone seeing silly things such as: "Boot Horseshoe *Scratch chin* Goose Goose Sword *Cough* *Sniff* Fork."

[chad878262]

and even better is the Assassin language which makes one think they attempt to kill people by having them die from insane sillyness in their speech.

As to reworking the language, the language in game at least still does the job of ensuring no one without Cant will understand folks talking it. The issue is of course that the sillyness means that OOC *EVERY* player meta knows when someone is speaking one of these secret codes (if you prefer to call them that rather than languages). So reworking the language to look more 'normal' would serve the purpose of making it less simple for Players to meta that the speaker is a rogue or nefarious individual or whatever.

[zhazz]

My thoughts were more along the lines of simply not having Thieves' Cant, Drowsign, and Assassin's Cant show up in the chat at all, unless you have the "language". That way it's entirely hidden, and can be used as is.

Valefort recently made a change to how translations are displayed, which leads me to believe it should be possible to determine, whether or not, a character knows a given language, and then simply not have specific ones show.

An argument could be made for a Spot or Sense Motive check allowing characters to "see" the gibberish produced, and thus know something is amiss. Although the DC would have to be high enough that someone without investment into those skills can't pick it up, while not being so high it's impossible.

[Blackbird]

...

it has been shot down before expanding it to most others like assassins

you could give it to every class that you think it would make since for, but then everyone and their grandmothers would have it and no one would want to bother using it because everyone would know what you are doing

i blame all the damn assassins (as if i dont have 2 of my own )

I actually think there's a reasonable argument to be made against giving it to the Assassin class without having them RP into it. Assassins work for many organizations and the lore behind them is not specifically linked to thieves' groups or guilds. The Flaming Fist even employs assassins and it's unlikely they'd be familiar with cant specific to a guild unless they were charged with eliminating its members.

[c2k]

...

it has been shot down before expanding it to most others like assassins

you could give it to every class that you think it would make since for, but then everyone and their grandmothers would have it and no one would want to bother using it because everyone would know what you are doing

i blame all the damn assassins (as if i dont have 2 of my own )

I actually think there's a reasonable argument to be made against giving it to the Assassin class without having them RP into it. Assassins work for many organizations and the lore behind them is not specifically linked to thieves' groups or guilds. The Flaming Fist even employs assassins and it's unlikely they'd be familiar with cant specific to a guild unless they were charged with eliminating its members.

Have to remember that the assassin class here is more like the Avenger/Assassin class.

The lore behind assassins in DnD is that assassins belong to their own unique organization. In fact, in PnP, you can't even take a level in Assassin without be affiliated with one of these assassin groups. I never heard of the Flaming Fist hiring assassins in canon lore either.

[Blackbird]

I never heard of the Flaming Fist hiring assassins in canon lore either.

It's referenced in the 1e campaign set book where it says they have "10 8th level assassins", but I guess that may not be relevant anymore as I can't seem to find it in any updated source books.

[Endelyon]

My thoughts were more along the lines of simply not having Thieves' Cant, Drowsign, and Assassin's Cant show up in the chat at all, unless you have the "language". That way it's entirely hidden, and can be used as is.

Thieves' Cant specifically is a spoken language, not a sign language. In fact it takes about four times longer to say something in Thieves Cant than it does in traditional languages, so there's no way to hide this, though it wouldn't be legible to those who can't speak it. Also it should have local dialects from region to region so we can presume that ours is simply the version for this region.

Can't say much about Drowsign or Assassin's Can't, but I don't think you should really have to roll spot to see that someone is using sign language. Drowsign has been used in several novels and there's no indication that it's this subtle.

As far as PRCs, they generally just don't grant languages. We could discuss staff side if this would be merited but no promises.

[zhazz]

Can't say much about Drowsign or Assassin's Can't, but I don't think you should really have to roll spot to see that someone is using sign language. Drowsign has been used in several novels and there's no indication that it's this subtle.

I might be misremembering things here, entirely possible. Though I am fairly certain that in the War of the Spider Queen novels drowsign is used at least once to signal the execution of a surfacer not knowing the drowsign language, despite them having lived in a drow noble house for well over two decades. And later on it is used again to signal a halt of hostilities to other surfacers, but they don't see it.

Of course Bruenor Battlehammer does at some point in the Drizzt sage ask some drow friends to stop the finger-wiggling. Although he has also spent decades with Drizzt, who has actively tried to teach others drowsign.

So an argument could be made for both, I guess?


In the end it's likely a matter of degree. Is a single flashed word in drowsign enough to clue everyone in that someone is "speaking", or does it require multiple?
NWN2 is bad at such degrees and distinctions, so likely safer to err on the side of caution, and just let it be shown all the time, even though it does take away some of the cloak and dagger roleplay it would otherwise enable.