Imaskari - Discussion

[Cinnamon]

As the title says. There's already been a lot of confusion and complaint, so I am just gonna kickstart it ahead of time.

I'm going to just continually edit this post with responses or clarifications, if need be. I'm terrible at Foruming, hi, nice to meet me, Terrible at Foruming. ^^

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Simon Said:

I’d say they are even less likely to be found on the Surface than Half-Drow. Nonetheless, any UD-born Character can go to the Surface RIGHT NOW, just that you, the Player, need an RP reason to stay there for any length of time (and DMs are the final arbiters of this, so prepare yourself well).

The ONLY reason for a UD Race to be able to choose UD or Surface “born,” is to be able to gain XP and loot chests in the opposed Realm. There is no wall preventing RP visitation.

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It's not about less or more likely, it's about the current server and it's dynamics.

Humans & Half-Elves get the axe in current Underdark BGTSCC.
Only way to avoid that is flat-out OOC denial of any PvP or playing EU Hours, which is avoiding the realism and struggle of your PC.
Imaskari shouldn't have these sorts of struggles across the board, and there's a lot of them, both because of rules and sever dynamic.

"The ONLY Reason..."

No, this is not what I'm after, please don't assume I, or anyone else, only have singular motives, that isn't fair.

The reason is, they are near exclusively Human, and are for any intent and purpose, is your above average Scholar Archetype in flesh.

This is significantly more appropriate to RP on the Surface, for every single reason you can imagine.

Surface has guilds, Mages, Scholars, Candlekeep, activity, DM Events, all sorts of map areas to actually be a Scholar for.

It's not that UD doesn't have the same, it's that UD has lacking content - physical content - and player base, you will be RPing entirely on your own.
Should you find a player, you're highly likely to run into PvP or generally mentally taxing conflict RP. If someone doesn't want this, they don't want this, and should be allowed to move away from an environment that's against their wishes.

I say this from personal experience of running Half-Elves & Imaskari in Underdark, by the way. They all get treated super badly, it's lessened as certain people have left, but when you are in the headspace for starry-eyed and happy to meet characters, who get spit on, beaten up, trodden, spoken to like trash...

Well, frankly, it's a Hope VS Rejection dynamic, you're gearing yourself up to RP a certain thing, to help you understand your character, not everyone has to do it, but it is how I do it, and then most of the content is like... How do I compare... Ah, I was super happy to go and visit a New Library, I found myself walking into a Moshpit with a couple of Bookshelves, maybe some are readable. Does that make sense?

Ultimately, this is against spirit of the server, I didn't come to play alone, or to only RP conflict, I can play NWN2 Campaign and roll Deep Imaskari for that, if It's what I want.


"There is no wall"

Incorrect.

Surface/Underdark Travel
Characters flagged as a surface race in the Underdark, and Underdark characters on the surface, will not gain any EXP from enemy kills or loot from chests in areas that are flagged on the side that isn't theirs.

When visiting the other side, have a legitimate roleplaying reason with a starting and ending point where you have to return to your home area once your business is concluded. (Being a point of contact and negotiating matters on behalf of a faction is an example of a legitimate reason, whereas going to the other side to PvP others is an example of an unacceptable reason.) Be ready to respond to a DM when asked by one.

Having a character of one side remain on a constant/permanent basis on the other side is not permitted without prior DM approval.

Players who are found to be violating or otherwise abusing this rule will find themselves ejected back to their home area and subject to disciplinary action in extreme circumstances.

This is the wall.

No Constant or Perm basis, without DM Approval.

They refuse to give DM Approval to let you join a guild etc etc. It's been denied countless times over the years.

Things change when we can prove our Community wants it, resistance gets us nowhere, though I am always going to say I welcome the debate, always.


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Valefort said:

Sshamath is the city of magic in this server, nothing prevents a non-drow from even rising in power. Magic wise nothing compares and certainly not Candlekeep, which is not even a mage guild.

Yeah and there's nothing in it to do. Unless DMs and players want to wake up and make things happen, which they're all busy doing their own Guild work when they login to Underdark.

So again, it is more about available content and player interaction, than necessarily pure by the book law functions.

Imaskari are better off being Surface for loads of reasons.

[Steve]

The paradigm is “players make things happen.”

You simply can’t put the onus on DMs. There are not enough of them to cater to every player, and barely enough to cater to a majority.

Get some friends to roll UD toons, create a Group that accepts the misfits, and adventure. Then, you’ll have “things happening” in the UD.

And FYI, I’ve played Svirfs and Imaskari in the UD/Upperdark a few times. It’s the world THEY inhabit, and an OOC gripe that the UD doesn’t have anything “going on” is not a good enough reason to change the UD races spawn in the UD, and cannot REMAIN on the Surface without RP reason.

That doesn’t stop you from rolling an Imaskari, getting to the Surface and trying to join Candlekeep. Something similar has happened before in the past on BGTSCC, actually. But that whole process should be based on IC, IG role play, not OOC issues, right?

If you’re just saying “DMs are just stonewalling player initiative,” then your better option is to petition the Head DMs and Admin, privately.

[Cinnamon]

The paradigm is “players make things happen.”

You simply can’t put the onus on DMs. There are not enough of them to cater to every player, and barely enough to cater to a majority.

Get some friends to roll UD toons, create a Group that accepts the misfits, and adventure. Then, you’ll have “things happening” in the UD.

And FYI, I’ve played Svirfs and Imaskari in the UD/Upperdark a few times. It’s the world THEY inhabit, and an OOC gripe that the UD doesn’t have anything “going on” is not a good enough reason to change the UD races spawn in the UD, and cannot REMAIN on the Surface without RP reason.

That doesn’t stop you from rolling an Imaskari, getting to the Surface and trying to join Candlekeep. Something similar has happened before in the past on BGTSCC, actually. But that whole process should be based on IC, IG role play, not OOC issues, right?

If you’re just saying “DMs are just stonewalling player initiative,” then your better option is to petition the Head DMs and Admin, privately.

Exactly, I'm making things happen right now.

No, if people were interested in UD, there would be more people there. They aren't, so why ask them to come and coddle me and make me have fun?
It should already exist. If I have to spawn in my own NPC Goon Squad, how does that make it any better or more appropriate? Surely it just bolsters my point, entirely, that a wall between UD & Surface should be at player leisure, not Staff leisure.
People who cannot be trusted do not dictate we are all untrustworthy.

If the answer to a problem is that I need to overrun my bathwater to have a bath, that isn't a solution.
If the market does not exist, I cannot enforce or create it, but I can ask for the extremely fair option to remove a silly rule or lessen it's harshness.

Imaskari just don't fit on this server, lore-wise, yes, I am quite happy with them being an UD Race and staying that way, we don't have that benefit, we're not on Tabletop, we're not running an UD Campaign. Christ, we're not running an UD -anything-. Shadowspinner, to my PoV, has always moved the Underdark and it will continue to move around each and every decision they make.

But what if Shadowspinner's RP doesn't fit in with what a PC does? Well, then that PC may as well be rejected, it's the only consistent RP going on, save the random passerby's that wanna see what's in the UD and then, oh, it's a dead zone with 50 deleted area gateways and nothing beyond visual porn.

Which, by the way, the visual porn aspect of the UD here is fantastic, but it is not a sole driving force behind anyone's decisions.

It's not an OOC gripe. It's a server populace problem, especially for EU/UK timezones, especially!
My requests to be on the Surface and do things as Half-Drow / Imaskari have been rejected, same for other people.

And those, FYI, were requests where I said I would play for 6 months and work towards it. It was still a no. ((Namely because CK, for example, -is- an auto 6 month IRL experience))

I mean, that's been said the whole time, I'm unsure why you point it out now?

[Steve]

My requests to be on the Surface and do things as Half-Drow / Imaskari have been rejected, same for other people.

Then maybe you should let it be?

And instead of “would play,” joe about actually play, and after 6 months of IG effort and Forum documentation, THEN plead your case?

Put horse before the cart!!!

[Cinnamon]

Then maybe you should let it be?

And instead of “would play,” joe about actually play, and after 6 months of IG effort and Forum documentation, THEN plead your case?

Put horse before the cart!!!

So you're suggesting I haven't played an Imaskari all this time and that there is no forum record of their existence?

That's brave.

[Tekill]

There is a very long history on this forum, full of players with great intentions, wanting to make positive changes to the UD, and for the most part usually failing to make said changes.

Maybe these changes would have been successful, maybe not. Regardless, the requests for changes fall on deaf ears. I do not think being ignored is intentional or ill intended- It is simply a matter of resources. There is no consistent and sizable player base in the UD so therefor the organizers of this server, do not have the resources and time to experiment with these requested changes.

The horse is permanently stuck behind the cart, with regards to the UD.

If there were a group large enough in the UD, playing regularly, that were vocal about the state of the UD, the server organizers would have an interest in at least addressing player requests for changes. Imagine if 50% of the people playing, played in the UD- well things would much different.

But there is not.

So we, as UD players, make a decision to accept things the way they are or stop playing UD characters.

It is illogical to attempt to implement a change that would only affect a tiny fraction of the player base, positively when:
a) you could be spending time making changes in areas that the majority of players actually play in.
b) that positive change for the few may also have a chance of negatively affecting the many.

I might sound defeatist, but that's the deal.

[Cinnamon]

There is a very long history on this forum, full of players with great intentions, wanting to make positive changes to the UD, and for the most part usually failing to make said changes.

Trust is a too way street, yes, but individualists can prove they are working for good intentions and be trusted independently, then we get to the favourtism complex that the Staff have noted they feel burdened by.

It's a cycle the Staff and Staff alone have to deal with, however they manage.

Maybe these changes would have been successful, maybe not. Regardless, the requests for changes fall on deaf ears. I do not think being ignored is intentional or ill intended- It is simply a matter of resources. There is no consistent and sizable player base in the UD so therefor the organizers of this server, do not have the resources and time to experiment with these requested changes.

We as players can only push for content we want to explore, we shouldn't be denied "just because". Let the waves ride and crash as they come, is my general perspective.

The horse is permanently stuck behind the cart, with regards to the UD.

Change does not happen when we stagnate and say no to everything out of principle, earnest or fallacy, doesn't matter, the end result is the same, objectively.

Back when I first came here, I had a looooooooot riding against me. I've since made an okay example that I'm actually just a hardcore roleplaying nutjob and perhaps seem to have a pitiable NEET existence. Maybe that helps me. Maybe it doesn't. But I've shown I can and will work hard to be apart of any Community, in my own weird way.

If there were a group large enough in the UD, playing regularly, that were vocal about the state of the UD, the server organizers would have an interest in at least addressing player requests for changes. Imagine if 50% of the people playing, played in the UD- well things would much different.

Actually, when I first came here in 2019, the UD had more active players then Surface, was a thriving stream of constant content, even more during EU Hours.
But then they all got banned or tired of having no content, having all their plotlines suddenly frozen when AoS got the boot and the history continues.

For whatever reason or another, all the people working on UD, got the boot or just simply left. Which is why it died and why we are here in December of 2020.

But that's a pretty stupidly long time, don't you think? Well, it takes time for a player, ahem, to make themselves noteworthy, so to speak...

Who knows. Maybe I will make the changes for myself and others, we can only see.

It is illogical to attempt to implement a change that would only affect a tiny fraction of the player base, positively when:
a) you could be spending time making changes in areas that the majority of players actually play in.
b) that positive change for the few may also have a chance of negatively affecting the many.

This is completely irrelevant in my honest opinion. It's not about how many or how little, it's about who and why.
If one person can manage to create a massive amount of content - Say, Aunrae and her being perceived as basically Mafia Boss of Underdark, then who the hell cares? There is a supply and a demand but the Staff have been PERCEIVED as constantly cutting off the oxygen to the Underdark until the players straight up suffocated.

Everyone's got their reasons, I'm not going to judge or say what's what, Staff can do that for themselves and we can judge if it's honest.


Also, totally irrelevant, sorry I've been stocked up with a ridiculous amount of work, as usual, but I don't think I extended my letter time on your inbox you sent me. Point is, I'll get to it soon-ish.

[Shadowspinner70]

I'm gonna quickly step in here. You move something when you're one of the few players in it, and as fun and easy as it can get, it's ultimately boring. You also need to keep in mind the city's laws and desires: trade and keeping the magi in power.

As I've griped one, two, three hundred times, we need more people. We need factions to be revived and new ones, period. Aunrae cannot run your guilds for you, as much as she may want to sometimes. If your PC isn't my cup of tea? Aunrae engages anyway, generally, and I shouldn't be the end-all-be-all; Tanlaus and Nathaniel both play frequently, now Easterncheese and Tekill. Blake. Banitovitsky!

Nathaniel and I are extremely vocal about the state of the Underdark alongside Gaelan Thorne and people who have left the UD. Anyway!

One concern i know about is when it comes to these requests, a precedent has to be considered. Will requests flood in the moment yes is said? Who are the other people who are running similar plotlines and would their actions warrant similar?

There is also the question of if an already small populace will be split even more. Since this seems to be your goal for the character since the beginning, I don't see how it should split the playerbase and with the proper RP, I'd probably just send you on your way to CK.

Though people then might worry about me sending Aunrae up there since she's had at least a year of RP thus far and I know of drow who were recognized for their efforts but still rejected to go into the Gate, for example.

That wasn't quick at all. Though... the UD has an offer you can't refuse, Dukes. It's Aunrae.

[Max Hatchet]

Lyra is still logging in occasionally

Maybe we can think of some pan-UD plot or task to undertake

[Shadowspinner70]

Let's do it! Though in forum PMs, discord PMs, or elsewhere entirely so we don't veer too far off of the topic!

[Asmodea]

Since Candlekeep has come up a few times! I figured I should comment:

I actually have no idea if an Imaskari could join Candlekeep!

A few years back an Imaskari attempted to join and wished to be a part of the Guild (wander around a lot on the surface connected to them) but remain an UD character as well. If my memory serves.... (This is like 2017 or something so don't wave torches at anyone over it!) ... they were informed that they could choose to become a Surface Character entirely or stay an UD character but couldn't do both (Home point in CK and spawn in UD with just being a CK member valid reason for surface RP). The experience was generally unpleasant enough for the player that they disappeared and as far as I know didn't meander back to the server.

The player in question was definitely a lore nerd and fit in well with Candlekeep ICly and IG at the time, having had about a month of RP with and around the guild and its members and had pretty universal acceptance on that end.

The reason why I bring this is up is not to point fingers at anyone but to shine light on that when it comes to stuff like this the answer of what is possible or not possible is not especially clear. How much needs IC or IG sense and how much is simply hard lines. It can be soul crushing to players to get all their IC and IG ducks in a row and then be told: Nope!

[Louvaine]

Where did we land? As a new player I have no idea who are the characters you guys named and I can only say I created an Imaskari (quite recently, to be fair) and my experience was mostly empty corridors and a race of racism (or just contempt, not sure sometimes) between NPCs and PCs I encounter.

I'm not a hardcore RP guy, I like to explore and kill stuff too. I don't enjoy sitting around in a tavern or by the fireplace and RP out of my ass, pardon my french. That might be reason why I haven't met as many PCs as I otherwise could, but I hope this can still change.

I like to make things happen, go on adventures. I hoped to put myself out there in this post. To maybe make some friends OOC to avoid more RP based on trash talk and demanding respect (which FYI I think is fine and completely grounded, it just gets boring quickly).

I hope to not limit myself to UD seeing as most of player base is on the surface for the most part. I hope to one day make it to surface and find a way not to be excluded from that, despite difficulty it can present with the rules wall and whatnot. So if there's someone from closer to surface who might enjoy meeting a scholar from down below, or someone from the depths of UD who is willing to overcome race differences, hit me up! I'd love to play with you!

P. S. My IG ID is Louvaine, character is called Solonariwan Saerhan.

[Tanlaus]

Where did we land? As a new player I have no idea who are the characters you guys named and I can only say I created an Imaskari (quite recently, to be fair) and my experience was mostly empty corridors and a race of racism (or just contempt, not sure sometimes) between NPCs and PCs I encounter.

I'm not a hardcore RP guy, I like to explore and kill stuff too. I don't enjoy sitting around in a tavern or by the fireplace and RP out of my (hiney), pardon my french. That might be reason why I haven't met as many PCs as I otherwise could, but I hope this can still change.

I like to make things happen, go on adventures. I hoped to put myself out there in this post. To maybe make some friends OOC to avoid more RP based on trash talk and demanding respect (which FYI I think is fine and completely grounded, it just gets boring quickly).

I hope to not limit myself to UD seeing as most of player base is on the surface for the most part. I hope to one day make it to surface and find a way not to be excluded from that, despite difficulty it can present with the rules wall and whatnot. So if there's someone from closer to surface who might enjoy meeting a scholar from down below, or someone from the depths of UD who is willing to overcome race differences, hit me up! I'd love to play with you!

P. S. My IG ID is Louvaine, character is called Solonariwan Saerhan.

My main is a UD character named Jyn. If you see me in game feel free to hit me up for RP or perhaps help with quests or anything else. PMs are fine. If you want to be more IC about it feel free to leave a message at Bregan D'aerthe (er, post something on the forums). It can be pretty empty down there, especially at low levels as most players have been there a long time and have multiple 30s.

On the note about racism, yes, most drow tend to be pretty snooty

But actually most of the players behind them are really nice. And you'll find they are more than willing to be helpful to newcomers.