Reliance on consumables/UMD as THE paradigm on BGTSCC

[Steve]

Subject: Loot Rebalance

I, personally, would love to see that sort of non-buffing "I can stand on my own skill and two feet" style of build become relevant! It may also lower the overall need for consumables and lower the price of them on the markets, if only by a smidge since they're still expensive to make.

That's a change that I would wholeheartedly get behind, but remember that while potions and wands exist there will be balance concerns....This is probably a discussion for another thread though.

It would be great if the AI would be capable of utilizing magic powers of mobs/bosses against magic using PCs, and melee powers against non-magic type PCs, and where Builders do not have to make Mobs that have to counter the gamut of PCs that attack. This uber capability means the content/mobs often are overpowered for the average PC type.

Essentially, in order to make combat absolutely more interesting, is where NWN2 could be scripted to spawn mobs based on a counter to the Party or Solo adventuring group.

For example, if a non-magic using PC or Group entered an Area of mobs, those mobs wouldn't challenge the PC(s) with having buffed DR, Immunity, massive crits and DC spells galore, but instead would challenge the PC(s) directly with similar, mirrored Abilities, AB, DMG output, etc., so that actual Dice Rolling, for both Player and AI, would determine the outcome, instead of lopsided power difference, often based on OOC experience gained by the Player(s).

In PnP, this is what the DM there for: to provide the Players a challenge, both intellectually and tactically, but put the outcome balanced on that creativity of the Player with the randomness of the Dice Roll.

How would it be possible to adjust/program the AI better? Is this just the "hitting the ceiling" of the Engine itself?

The philosophical problem here, as I see it, is that currently, Players could choose to roll up sub-power builds, and self-instill limitations, thus presenting themselves with a greater challenge in experiencing the Content...yet, few are willing to do it, and fewer still do it with NOT complaining in the end that Content is "too hard!!"

Thus, given the problem that Players don't self-manage challenge very well, in mechanics-vs-content realm, designers would have to create content that itself, adjusts to the Power Level of the PCs, in the encounters. And, obviously, Rewards being commensurate to the actual Challenge Rating (which would, in the perfect system, fluctuate greatly!).

Maybe I'm over thinking it (wouldn't be the first time! lol). That said, what say you to the topic, and simpler/more likely changes? Cheers.

[Kitunenotsume]

Considering the often minimal CL of most consumables, even scattered Lesser Dispel Magic cast from traps or monsters can have a suppressing effect on scrolls and potions. Sundren used to be pretty rife with Dispel traps that, while easily bypassed with rogues who also have UMD, made it more complicated for non-trap capable classes to run around with kitchen-sink buffs unless they had the appropriate caster-levels to keep them. Similarly, almost every major area had enemy spellcasters who could (and would) cast Dispels, while one more notable area was the bane even for pure casters because they cast Breach (which, admittedly, made UMD more powerful there because consumable buffs were not daily-limited).

In essence, providing the dungeon with means of reliably countering the natively low CL of consumable buffs could give them a definite Achilles Heel compared to true spellcaster buffs. I will note, however, that such a threat has a strong potential to increase the quantity of consumables carried for play-styles that insist on restoring said buffs when stripped rather than learning to function without.

Addendum: Indirectly, this threat would also makes the value of things like MA Elixirs more desirable in certain situations explicitly because (outside hard caps like GMW, MV, and self-targets), Elixirs do not carry the general "Minimum caster level" of most consumables - which might make the toxicity tradeoff at least somewhat bearable.

[Hoihe]

If enemies stop mandating over 50 AC to avoid losing 100 HP per fight, or mirror images - then we can eliminate the need for consumables.

[Valefort]

Evaluating the abilities of a single PC is already a lot of guesswork, evaluating what a group can do is much more difficult...and then tailoring the monsters to face it ? The idea is good, not new and possible but terribly difficult to implement well.

[Steve]

Evaluating the abilities of a single PC is already a lot of guesswork, evaluating what a group can do is much more difficult...and then tailoring the monsters to face it ? The idea is good, not new and possible but terribly difficult to implement well.

That is what I expected, or assumed...that setting up challenges in any custom way, would be terribly difficult. And, of course, one can ask if even worth the effort!

But I think often on what you said some times in the past, that one option would be to make the Content (mobs, Bosses, etc.) just across the board less powerful, and thus powerbuilders and power builds will become boring, since there would be absolutely not challenge left for them, mechanically. And, a whole new middle tier builds group would become much more feasible and enjoyable to play, on BGTSCC, because either solo or in a group, the unique features on many Classes and PrCs would now be actually useful in the Adventure Effort, unlike nowadays.

Can it be, either that, general reduction of power levels thus reducing needs for consumables and UMD, or, it would be drastic difficulty upgrades, such that soloing itself becomes impossible?

I was thinking about another option these last days, and that was tied to the changes to make that could bring non-buffing Play into a better state of...play. The idea is: reduce some of the magic casting of mobs and bosses, some of the ridiculous DR and Immunities, and the Pumped Saves, and triple or quadruple the Rest Timer.

This way, those non-buffing builds would have the immediate benefit of staying power, and glass canons, casters, Divine MIghters, etc., with powerful but limited Times per Day, will have to conserve their strengths.

Players rely on consumables because mobs and bosses are so buffed up to counter Builds that can re-up to full power every 18 minutes, to counter the everlasting magic use and DC power of PCs.

[yyj]

Wouldn't powerbuilders complain things are too easy?

I like these suggestions a lot but it's indeed a lot of work, especially achieving a balance that cathers to all playstyles.

[RagingPeace]

Perhaps making it easier to find alternative healing sources. Currently I use three of those Pearl belts that give you 3 x vigor per rest, priest gloves that give 3 x cure serious wounds (or critical? I forgot) and my main belt has 1 x cure critical wounds. But as long as Im evasionless it only takes one or two unlucky encounters with a caster and Im down 100 to 200 hp. Eventually Ill run out of my healing sources and the only option is to use heal potions or rest, and then I have to decide whether popping a heal potion or resting and rebuffing / refreshing heal items is cheaper.
Now lately Ive been picking up all meat and cooking it to help in these situations and it does help... But lesser vigor only does so much. Maybe it would be possible to expand the cooking and make it possible to produce better healing sources, perhaps hook it up to the Survival skill?

[Planehopper]

Wouldn't powerbuilders complain things are too easy?

I like these suggestions a lot but it's indeed a lot of work, especially achieving a balance that cathers to all playstyles.

Making things so difficult that one requires using UMD, consumables, and building for mechanics over story isnt catering to all playstyles. It is allowing all playstyles and building around one - the powerbuild.

We have a split on the server of folks that see end game content as too difficult, and their perception is that their playstyle is impacted by encouraging meta builds and consumable use (what heroic warrior ever switched belts and gloves out 3 times in a story to heal himself?)

The other half is really excited for higher end content with more challenges, and is bored when they rofl-stomp content because they know how to play a build and optimize a character and enjoy that.

Is the sever enjoyable for late epics that don't focus on piling on clickables and relying heavily on wands, potions, and scrolls? I dunno.

[chad878262]

I'm torn... To some extent it is a valid ask, but on another it is a case where in some cases the 'issue' is actually prioritizing offense over defense.

If you were to make a F12/AK10/DC8 (or substitute WoD if you prefer) you would not compete for damage or come even close to a Weapon Master/FB build.... However, you would have Fortitude and Will saves of near 40 with common +save gear alongside ~30's reflex saves. On top of this you still can use feats like IPA or NH to improve damage and can still hit mid-50's AC with a shield, sacrificing AC for more damage going two handed. Can also of course do the same thing many Weapon Master/FB builds do and add 3 or 4 levels of rogue, whirling dervish, or shadow dancer to have evasion if you so chose. Options like F12/R4/WoD4/DC10 or F12/R4/AK10/DC4. And of course you can drop AK/WoD and instead grab Dragon Warrior or Dervish etc. if you prefer to gain some additional damage, AC, Reflex saves or other benefits in exchange for slightly lower Will saves.

Such non-caster melee builds are right up there with Barbarian or M@A/BG in terms of PvE survivability when you factor in things like Evasion and Steadfast Determination, but much like most caster builds and really any highly survivable PvE build they don't kill as fast and just generally aren't 'flashy'. From a balancing perspective, is it 'fair' to such builds that F/Rogue/WM/FB build number 3,472 can survive PvE just as easily as them with no consumables and critting for 1,000,000 damage? It's a tough question to answer in a way that will make everyone happy.

TL;DR - There are ways (and the above is not the only such way) to avoid consumable use in PvE. It's just that for many players that is not the style they want, which is why I said on one level I get the ask.

[yyj]

The thing, that a lot of people need to look at, is that if you make content soloable just without using any UMD, then, builds that want to use UMD would have things even easier?

Surely this is not what the OP said, but it seems impossible to have a system that looks at your items and builds and them comes up wih a fun encounter....Maybe another way is to have the end part of the dungeon with 3 or 4 doors that each take you to one of the alternative Boss encounters on the dungeon, but even that has it's own set of problems.

[Tanlaus]

I think the problem, more fundamentally, is that people expect to be able to solo end game content no matter what the build.

If that becomes the case then it’s not power builds that will lose interest as much as everyone who groups.

Right now pretty much any trio of non power built 30s can roll through pretty much everything in the server, Leroy Jenkin’s shenanigans aside.

If you start reducing challenge levels so anyone can solo without consumables then grouping will make the game boring.

[Hoihe]

I'm torn... To some extent it is a valid ask, but on another it is a case where in some cases the 'issue' is actually prioritizing offense over defense.

If you were to make a F12/AK10/DC8 (or substitute WoD if you prefer) you would not compete for damage or come even close to a Weapon Master/FB build.... However, you would have Fortitude and Will saves of near 40 with common +save gear alongside ~30's reflex saves. On top of this you still can use feats like IPA or NH to improve damage and can still hit mid-50's AC with a shield, sacrificing AC for more damage going two handed. Can also of course do the same thing many Weapon Master/FB builds do and add 3 or 4 levels of rogue, whirling dervish, or shadow dancer to have evasion if you so chose. Options like F12/R4/WoD4/DC10 or F12/R4/AK10/DC4. And of course you can drop AK/WoD and instead grab Dragon Warrior or Dervish etc. if you prefer to gain some additional damage, AC, Reflex saves or other benefits in exchange for slightly lower Will saves.

Such non-caster melee builds are right up there with Barbarian or M@A/BG in terms of PvE survivability when you factor in things like Evasion and Steadfast Determination, but much like most caster builds and really any highly survivable PvE build they don't kill as fast and just generally aren't 'flashy'. From a balancing perspective, is it 'fair' to such builds that F/Rogue/WM/FB build number 3,472 can survive PvE just as easily as them with no consumables and critting for 1,000,000 damage? It's a tough question to answer in a way that will make everyone happy.

TL;DR - There are ways (and the above is not the only such way) to avoid consumable use in PvE. It's just that for many players that is not the style they want, which is why I said on one level I get the ask.

Thing is, even a build specifically made for survivability (stacking HiPS, evasion and unbuffed 55-58 AC) requires mirror image due to CR scaling making enemies that previous were manageable with low 50s AC requiring you to have 58 to avoid losing hundreds of HP - and 58 AC means ICE + Athkatlan, which as you mentioned - is a very, very slow way to kill enemies. Especially if they have DR and high HP (and in my case: crit immune).

[yyj]

I'm torn... To some extent it is a valid ask, but on another it is a case where in some cases the 'issue' is actually prioritizing offense over defense.

If you were to make a F12/AK10/DC8 (or substitute WoD if you prefer) you would not compete for damage or come even close to a Weapon Master/FB build.... However, you would have Fortitude and Will saves of near 40 with common +save gear alongside ~30's reflex saves. On top of this you still can use feats like IPA or NH to improve damage and can still hit mid-50's AC with a shield, sacrificing AC for more damage going two handed. Can also of course do the same thing many Weapon Master/FB builds do and add 3 or 4 levels of rogue, whirling dervish, or shadow dancer to have evasion if you so chose. Options like F12/R4/WoD4/DC10 or F12/R4/AK10/DC4. And of course you can drop AK/WoD and instead grab Dragon Warrior or Dervish etc. if you prefer to gain some additional damage, AC, Reflex saves or other benefits in exchange for slightly lower Will saves.

Such non-caster melee builds are right up there with Barbarian or M@A/BG in terms of PvE survivability when you factor in things like Evasion and Steadfast Determination, but much like most caster builds and really any highly survivable PvE build they don't kill as fast and just generally aren't 'flashy'. From a balancing perspective, is it 'fair' to such builds that F/Rogue/WM/FB build number 3,472 can survive PvE just as easily as them with no consumables and critting for 1,000,000 damage? It's a tough question to answer in a way that will make everyone happy.

TL;DR - There are ways (and the above is not the only such way) to avoid consumable use in PvE. It's just that for many players that is not the style they want, which is why I said on one level I get the ask.

Thing is, even a build specifically made for survivability (stacking HiPS, evasion and unbuffed 55-58 AC) requires mirror image due to CR scaling making enemies that previous were manageable with low 50s AC requiring you to have 58 to avoid losing hundreds of HP - and 58 AC means ICE + Athkatlan, which as you mentioned - is a very, very slow way to kill enemies. Especially if they have DR and high HP (and in my case: crit immune).

Surely grouping with someone will fix it all. I have a moon elf DPS that could probably do well teaming up with your tanky swashbuckler.

[Svabodnik]

[...]From a balancing perspective, is it 'fair' to such builds that F/Rogue/WM/FB build number 3,472 can survive PvE just as easily as them with no consumables and critting for 1,000,000 damage? It's a tough question to answer in a way that will make everyone happy. [...]

A point that I've personally experienced in my time playing thus far, at least in soloing content. As someone who's played a variety of builds, my most consumable-reliant characters are also the ones that I'd built with the recognition that they'd essentially be glass cannons - STR monk/fighter pugilist, the j-average FB/WM combo, an EDM 2WFighter, etc. Those could do as much damage in an attack flurry as some of my more resilient roster would pull off in a round, but would tend to require a MI/haste/displacement wanding prior to initiating a tougher boss fight. To a certain extent, more offense can sometimes mean more 'defense' in a sense that with a larger damage output you can kill an enemy quicker before they can pose more of a threat. This can be disrupting spellcasting with high damage, using that high STR in order to land knockdowns, in general giving enemies less time to roll attacks (whether your AC is 48 or 72, a 20 still autohits)... and being able to down the enemy well before your low-CL UMDed buffs run out. The downside is the time you save in killing the enemy may need to be used to spam healer kits as soon as the fight is over.

[chad878262]

If that becomes the case then it’s not power builds that will lose interest as much as everyone who groups.

So much this... There are area's that frankly are easy to solo, it is ok and desirable (IMO) that there are also area's that unless you far exceed the CR is best to do in a group if you want no risk of fugue. Simply put some folks *never* go to dungeons without a party, and they should be able to party up and not fall asleep at the keyboard in PvE (unless all PvE puts them to sleep, but then why did they leave the city/inn/campfire?) It is a zero sum game, unfortunately. If an area is relatively easy to solo, then it by default is zero challenge for 3 or more PC's. If an area provides any challenge to a party then it is going to be very difficult for anything besides a powerbuilt/geared out to the max PC to solo at level equal to CR.

Thing is, even a build specifically made for survivability (stacking HiPS, evasion and unbuffed 55-58 AC) requires mirror image due to CR scaling making enemies that previous were manageable with low 50s AC requiring you to have 58 to avoid losing hundreds of HP - and 58 AC means ICE + Athkatlan, which as you mentioned - is a very, very slow way to kill enemies. Especially if they have DR and high HP (and in my case: crit immune).

This is simply inaccurate for several reasons. First, Greypeaks mobs AB is 34 so 55-58 AC means you are only hit on a 20 and I am pretty sure that is the highest AB goes outside bosses. However, if you are allowing yourself to be surrounded by two or more mobs, than positioning becomes important when you do not have Improved Uncanny Dodge than Flanking bonuses apply, which may mean you are able to be hit on rolls below 20 (and enemies can land critical hits). The fact you have HiPS and still are having issues with AC that high is odd... My Rogue with 40 AC and Epic Dodge does fine even solo, sometimes using Cat's Grace and Shield Wand to reach a whopping 46 AC. I only tell you this because I think you perhaps need to consider changing tactics because while your build is survivable, perhaps the way you are utilizing the capabilities at your disposal are less optimized and causing problems. I didn't become capable of surviving PvE until I stopped 'beating my head' against the proverbial wall and came to understand the issue was in my approach, not in my build. Athkatlan in this case is probably hurting more than it is helping. While ICE you can 'flip on' after the first flurry out of stealth, Athkatlan cooldown will make it more difficult to manage. Best bet to do more damage with more APR. Or, if you want Athkatlan, use parry mode as it effectively removes the downside of losing attacks (Parry mode will still give one parry per flurry or 3/round).

A point that I've personally experienced in my time playing thus far, at least in soloing content. As someone who's played a variety of builds, my most consumable-reliant characters are also the ones that I'd built with the recognition that they'd essentially be glass cannons - STR monk/fighter pugilist, the j-average FB/WM combo, an EDM 2WFighter, etc. Those could do as much damage in an attack flurry as some of my more resilient roster would pull off in a round, but would tend to require a MI/haste/displacement wanding prior to initiating a tougher boss fight.

Correct, this is the point I was attempting to get across. There are plenty of builds that can survive solo, but all of them do require the player to know some strong tactics on how to play that character. For the builds I listed it is as simple as understanding the basic concept of prioritizing defense. So thinks like going 21 STR/CON rather than max STR so you can have high saves from steadfast (CON to Will), Epic DR (assuming you take a PRC that grants DR), and pushing AC to 55 will give you a super tanky fighter build that can play much like a dragon druid (i.e. slowly outlast enemies in pve.) For other builds like what I was discussing above in response to Hoihe it is about utilizing HiPS, when to turn modes on/off, when to use clickies, etc.

You mention playing a lot of builds and this is also important. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I feel like I can rogue as well as anyone. However, if I am playing a caster (that isn't just a gish of one kind or another) folks I play with are probably LOL'ing behind their keyboard at how awful I am at timing my spells, positioning, etc. With time I could probably get better at it, but I honestly don't enjoy the playstyle enough to do it consistently over a long time period. Similarly Warlocks are super powerful, but if a player doesn't understand what invocations are must have's, what stats to prioritize for what they want to do or how to actually utilize invocations or other abilities to control positioning, they most likely think Warlocks super weak and from their perspective they are not wrong. It is just a matter of not only understanding builds, but also figuring out tactics and strategies for a given character that you are playing.