Codify and record skill DCs

[Hoihe]

A suggestion I made years ago, post taken 1:1

You have a concept.

You read d20SRB/PhB/DMG for details to figure out how to make a build that justifies the concept. This includes getting skill ranks within a certain range of DC to guarantee or make success more likely.

You concede that the DCs are "Ideal situations", and refer to diplomacy/Scrying/teleport rolls to figure out how un-ideal situations may affect the skill rolls. You plan your build around non-ideal situations that make sense.

You decide what makes sense by asking the following questions:

1. Would a level 0 commoner be able to do this?
2. If not, would a level 4 commoner be able to do this? (adjust for 8 so it's in line with BG having adventurers at level 15 x 2)
3. If not, would a level 0 Expert/Adept/Warrior/Aristocrat be able to do this?
4. If not, would a level 4 Expert/Adept/Warrior/Aristocrat be able to do this? (adjust for 8)
6. If not, would a level 1 Adventurer classed character be able to do this? (adjust to 2)
7. If not, would a level 4 adventurer classed character be able to do this? (adjust to 8)
8. If not, would a level 8 adventurer classed character be able to do this? (adjust to 16)
9. If not, would a level 15 adventurer classed character be able to do this? (Adjust to 30)
10. If not, would a level 20 adventurer classed character be able to do this? (Adjust to 40)

Make the following assumptions to answer the above:

1. The world is inhabited primarily by level 0 commoners who do things just fine
2. Level 4 commoners tend to be veterans at their professions
3. Level 0 specialists tend to be the second most common, and represent the majority of craftsmen/skilled labourers/scholars
4. Level 4 Specialists tend to be guild masters, senior scholars, high ranking millitary officers, what have you
5. A level 1 adventurer is relatively common, but tend to be able to accomplish more than most people.
6. A level 4 adventurer is still relatively common, but are rarely hindered by mundane aspects of life. Instead, they are able to survive sub-optimal circumnstances (think Army Rangers/Delta Force being trained to go days with barely no sleep and still do their job)
7. A level 8 adventurer is prepared to deal with extraoridinary matters. The only thing that will throw them off is doing things in the heat of combat, having no equipment AND bad environmental conditions. These guys are elites.
8. A level 15 adventurer does things that are the stuff of legends. A level 15 adventurer will somehow be able to find a hidden uncharted island working off of legends and hearsay and minimal data provided by poor weather conditions, broken instruments and such. They will not succeed always, but they have a good chance to do so. Doing a practised thing in poor conditions does not affect their chance of success.
9. A level 20 adventurer does what a level 15 does, except with much higher certainity. It also tends into mythical qualities, the stuff that greeks tell of their greatest heroes.

For the above, use the following rules depending on intended safety margin:
If NOT using the assumption that the world is twice its power level/PCs are half their own:

• For a level 0 Commoner, DC of 10 is the highest due to being untrained. Anything above DC 10 is very unlikely, unless training is not required for the skill or it's a safe. However, the idea remains that DC of 5 is realistic, 10 is possible, 15 is unlikely, 20 is lucky.
• For a level 0 specialist, adjust all DCs by 2-6 depending on stat spread. I'd go with 5 (full investment and ability affinity)
• For a level 4 commoner, DCs may be higher by 2-3 (assume cross-class/low int/1 ability affinity)
• For a level 4 specialist, Commoner 0 DCs may be increased by 5-9 (depending on stat spread, assuming class skill).
• For a level 1-4 adventurer, use specialist values, but tend towards higher due to stat affinity
• For a level 8 adventurer, take commoner 0 values and add 11 and stat affinity of 3 (+14)
• For level 15, take commoner 0 values and add 18 and stat affinity of 4 (+22)
• For level 20, take commoner 0 and add 23 and stat affinity of 5 (+28)

IF using the 2X assumption.

• For a level 0 commoner, values are the same. 5 for easy, 10 for possible, 15 for unlikely, 20 for lucky
• For level 0 specialist, values are the same (add 2-6 to commoner 0)
• For level 4 commoner (8), take commoner 0 and add 5 (cross class) and affinity of 1 (+6)
• For level 4 specialist (8), take commoner 0 and add 11 (class) and affinity of 2 (+13)
• For adventurer 1-4 (2-8), do as level 4 specialist, but affinity +1 compared to specialist for apporpriate. (+14 at 4)
• For adventurer 8 (16), take commoner 0 and add 19 to the DC for class skill and affinity of 4 (+25)
• For adventurer of 15 (30), take commoner 0 and add 33 and affinity of 6 (39)
• For adventurer of 20 (40), take commoner 0 and add 43 and affinity of 8 (51)

As long as the DMs keep in mind the probability of an NPC needing to do the same task, and what kind of NPC succeeding at it, DCs will remain normal.

It's an intuitive system that doesn't need looking at d20srd if the complaint is "it crashed the DM client to alt tab".

• A challenge that puts one encounters every day would be aimed at a commoner 0.
• A challenge that puts an average working NPC to the test would be aimed at specialist 0.
• A challenge that puts an experienced commoner to the test would be at commoner 4
• A challenge that requires a talented specialist with decades of experience would be at specialist 4
• A Challenge that puts Theseus/Odysseus to the test would be aimed at Adventurer 8
• A challenge that puts Orion to the test would be aimed at Adventurer 15.
• A challenge that puts Achilles/Heracles to the test would be aimed at adventurer 20.

Now think about the ridiculous DCs some DMs give (fit for Achilles/Heracles) for tasks that random NPCs do day to day (which they succeed at, otherwise society would fall apart).


Codify the above so that everyone can look at it and then assign their skill points/saves according to what they want their character to accomplish. Most will safely be able to aim at the "Army Ranger/Delta Force" level of specialist/adventurer 4 (8) and safely justify their RP.

Those who want herculean achievements (say, swaying an entire city with a moving speech) will have to pass a ridiculous DC - but such is acceptable. Furthermore, hidden modifiers can still exists as long as they make sense and are communicated somehow (especially for diplomacy, where the original opinion heavily influences the result. The same roll that makes a hostile person indifferent will make the indifferent person ready to die for your ideals.)

[Steve]

Difficulty Class
Some checks are made against a Difficulty Class (DC). The DC is a number (set using the skill rules as a guideline) that you must score as a result on your skill check in order to succeed.

Table: Difficulty Class Examples
Difficulty (DC) Example (Skill Used)

• Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)
• Easy (5) Climb a knotted rope (Climb)
• Average (10) Hear an approaching guard (Listen)
• Tough (15) Rig a wagon wheel to fall off (Disable Device)
• Challenging (20) Swim in stormy water (Swim)
• Formidable (25) Open an average lock (Open Lock)
• Heroic (30) Leap across a 30-foot chasm (Jump)
• Nearly Impossible(40) Track a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)

Favorable And Unfavorable Conditions
Some situations may make a skill easier or harder to use, resulting in a bonus or penalty to the skill modifier for a skill check or a change to the DC of the skill check.

The chance of success can be altered in four ways to take into account exceptional circumstances.

Give the skill user a +2 circumstance bonus to represent conditions that improve performance, such as having the perfect tool for the job, getting help from another character (see Combining Skill Attempts), or possessing unusually accurate information.
Give the skill user a -2 circumstance penalty to represent conditions that hamper performance, such as being forced to use improvised tools or having misleading information.
Reduce the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task easier, such as having a friendly audience or doing work that can be subpar.
Increase the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task harder, such as having an uncooperative audience or doing work that must be flawless.
Conditions that affect your character’s ability to perform the skill change the skill modifier. Conditions that modify how well the character has to perform the skill to succeed change the DC. A bonus to the skill modifier and a reduction in the check’s DC have the same result: They create a better chance of success. But they represent different circumstances, and sometimes that difference is important.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/using ... cultyClass

[Hoihe]

Difficulty Class
Some checks are made against a Difficulty Class (DC). The DC is a number (set using the skill rules as a guideline) that you must score as a result on your skill check in order to succeed.

Table: Difficulty Class Examples
Difficulty (DC) Example (Skill Used)

• Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)
• Easy (5) Climb a knotted rope (Climb)
• Average (10) Hear an approaching guard (Listen)
• Tough (15) Rig a wagon wheel to fall off (Disable Device)
• Challenging (20) Swim in stormy water (Swim)
• Formidable (25) Open an average lock (Open Lock)
• Heroic (30) Leap across a 30-foot chasm (Jump)
• Nearly Impossible(40) Track a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)

Favorable And Unfavorable Conditions
Some situations may make a skill easier or harder to use, resulting in a bonus or penalty to the skill modifier for a skill check or a change to the DC of the skill check.

The chance of success can be altered in four ways to take into account exceptional circumstances.

Give the skill user a +2 circumstance bonus to represent conditions that improve performance, such as having the perfect tool for the job, getting help from another character (see Combining Skill Attempts), or possessing unusually accurate information.
Give the skill user a -2 circumstance penalty to represent conditions that hamper performance, such as being forced to use improvised tools or having misleading information.
Reduce the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task easier, such as having a friendly audience or doing work that can be subpar.
Increase the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task harder, such as having an uncooperative audience or doing work that must be flawless.
Conditions that affect your character’s ability to perform the skill change the skill modifier. Conditions that modify how well the character has to perform the skill to succeed change the DC. A bonus to the skill modifier and a reduction in the check’s DC have the same result: They create a better chance of success. But they represent different circumstances, and sometimes that difference is important.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/using ... cultyClass

I know this exists, but many players and DMs do not use it citing the level 30 character level and "to always give a challenge" (even if that challenge means NPCs can't do something routine due to massive DC).

The idea is to offer a solution towards level 30 character level, and offer guideline towards tailoring DCs that make sense in the setting.

[Steve]

Well, everything is over-inflated on BGTSCC, so it would make some sense to take the Core DC list and just double those values, with a mind that Level 30 PCs are mostly set to “heroic” challenges.

And no, there will never be a PC that has enough skills and experience to not fail.

The real issue here, which you are not saying Hoihe,is when a player, like you, disagree with the DC a DM sets, and can’t let go of it, that your PC failed the challenge, and then you stick with that one experience for years as an example to a “problem.” And worse, you apply your one-time negative experience to all DMs and all future encounters, like, a constant worry you are going to get “screwed” by DMs forever more.

No codifying of DCs is going to solve your issue, Hoihe which is a personal one. However, you should be granted the right to speak your mind when you find something a DM has done as unfair, and there are official channels to do so. But again, and eventually, you’ll need to accept the result, whatever it may be, and move on.

[artemitavik]

I've actually rarely had crazy DC issues with DM events, honestly. A time or two when using a plumb-bob to check when something is level or something like that, but usually when I've tried to do something "Normal" that is day to day, my normal, day to day skills have been perfectly successful.

For instance, just the other day I was asked to roll a Lore:local for a thing on a rumor. I have crap lore:local, but the area was very familiar to me so my roll of somewhere in the mid teens +2 was sufficient to get the information.

Derik wants to do a backflip, he rolls his tumble and rolls a 48 or something... I've never had a DM tell me he was unsuccessful in something like that. Usually when I've failed my really high rolls it's not due to them being based off a "standard" difficulty, but an actual opposed roll. IE: I'm looking for something (search/spot/listen) that is actively hiding from me.

Otherwise, most DMs I've run with have realized that not every skill on every level 30 character is going to be a god-like level and often I've found difficulties set appropriately.

Sometimes I've failed and disagree with the difficulty, and said so. Sometimes the DM goes "oh, yeah, that makes sense" and changes ruling. Sometimes the DM says "no cope." I grumble and cope. *shrug*

[Blackman D]

my experiences have seemed like DMs care less about the values, aside from normal minimums, and more about how you rp handling the situation and just make you roll to roll something and see how well you pull it off

i know one thing that aggravates a lot of the DMs are people who say they wanna do x and then roll thinkin the DM will fill in the blanks for them, versus saying i wanna do x and im gonna do y, z, and a little bit of c, d, and k for it and see how it goes and then roll, basically give the DMs something to work with, and ive never had issues or seen issues when its done anything close to that

[Thaelis]

I can kinda see the DMs' dilemma. It's not hard to stack skill bonuses up to +80 or even +100 in some cases. My character had +85 Hide at level 25. Quite frankly that is insane...his skill (28 ranks) literally only accounted for 1/3 of the bonus.

It's a problem in PnP that's amplified here because of PC's being so much richer. While Lore etc is affected less, it's certainly not unaffected. You can still get +4 (Int + Fox's cunning), +4 (Heroism) +15 (gear) before any ranks if you collect 4-5 pieces of gear, so you can get a +23 bonus with no investment. Meaning that with no training you could suceed at a DC 43 check if you take 20. Same goes for most skills.

[c2k]

You also have to take into account the pre-buffing that you just can't do in PnP DnD, but works in the video game environment.

[zhazz]

i know one thing that aggravates a lot of the DMs are people who say they wanna do x and then roll thinkin the DM will fill in the blanks for them, versus saying i wanna do x and im gonna do y, z, and a little bit of c, d, and k for it and see how it goes and then roll, basically give the DMs something to work with, and ive never had issues or seen issues when its done anything close to that

There is a fairness aspect to consider here too. Some players do not have the best English vocabulary, or have difficulties translating from their native language to English. Similarly some players have difficulties conveying their thoughts and actions, regardless of their skill in the English language. And finally not every player is as suave or smooth-talking as their character is meant to be, making it near impossible for them to make a convincing argument through role play.

That is not to say that there shouldn't be a a consideration of mimimum effort. However, unlike tabletop, where the players and DM know each other well enough to understand this dilemma, it is nearly impossible for the DMs of BG to know of player shortcomings. As such I would advise to err on the side of caution, when deciding what constitutes a good effort from the players. Especially for interactions relying on Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Taunt.

[Steve]

While I wholly appreciate effort, it should also be acceptable to, in a DM Event or NPC interaction, to emote: *Jon Smythe would use his diplomacy to try and gain more details from the resistant prisoner.*. And then leave it to the DM to decide what DC would be appropriate, and then let me the player roll that chance of success...without me the player having to “act it out.”

This is why we Role-play, to be able to do things we cannot do in RL...and not just swords and sorcery.