When I read the Players's Guide to Faerun, I see under the region Thay, that the main automatic language is Mulhorandi, with the following as bonus languages:
Nowhere in the sourcebook do I see Thayan listed as its own language.
There is a source here, though, that says Thayan language and Mulhorandi are separate. Thayans used different scripts, such as infernal or Thoross, to write the language (as opposed to pictorgraphs). However, it also says this:
Thayan was so closely related to Mulhorandi that many scholars considered them a single language. Both languages were in the Mulani languages group within the Rauric languages family.
I may have missed some references here, but I do have a question.
What languages should a Thayan be expected to speak? Perhaps the Red Wizards might also write Thayan in the alternate scripts, but it seems to me that the Thayan and Mulhorandi languages are one and the same when spoken.
I'd like to codify this for the Thayan Enclave guild so we can be consistent. There are some who speak Thayan but not Mulhorandi, and some who speak Mulhorandi but not Thayan. It leads to a very confusing issue, that I think mechanically is very frustrating. Personally, I'd prefer that Mulhorandi be the spoken version. Perhaps you could merge the two languages?
My reading of this lore may not be perfect so I'm interested in other perspectives.
Thayan and Mulhorandi are the same language but with different scripts and some dialect differences. Realistically, a person who speaks Thayan should be able to understand a person who speaks Mulhorandi, and vice versa. The two languages would be better labeled as Mulhorandi and Thayan Mulhorandi.
There's a few other languages like this (like primordial and all the elemental languages, which should all be understandable by each other).
Personally, I wouldn't mind merging Thayan and Mulhorandi into one language. I think the differences are small enough, and we're so far away from the nations in question, that there's no point having them as separate languages. If BG was set on that side of the world, then maybe I could see having both.
Until then, Thayan would be the most appropriate one for a Thayan character. Though I'd probably take both on any Thayan character--most Red Wizards are bound to be exposed to and able to write in both forms.
Tarina — The Witch of Darkhold, a dealer in spirits and black magic
I agree with this as well. However, I don't know recall if you can choose Thayan as a language at the start of the game, and if it is one of those languages locked to faction, people would just take Mulhorandi just to grief the said faction.
So, it makes sense, but it might mechanically hurt players. I guess it all depends on how the Red Wizard faction is handled by staff these days.
c2k wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:41 am
I agree with this as well. However, I don't know recall if you can choose Thayan as a language at the start of the game, and if it is one of those languages locked to faction, people would just take Mulhorandi just to grief the said faction.
So, it makes sense, but it might mechanically hurt players. I guess it all depends on how the Red Wizard faction is handled by staff these days.
Anyone can take Thayan. Its not a locked language.
Khali - "Magic is supreme, in both its wonder and its terror. Cower before your superiors, or suffer."
c2k wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:41 am
I don't know recall if you can choose Thayan as a language at the start of the game, and if it is one of those languages locked to faction, people would just take Mulhorandi just to grief the said faction.
I just made a test Sun Elf to see what languages were available at level 1. A new player has the option to select both Mulhorandi and Thayan. I am not worried about griefing. Red Wizards have not been powerful as a faction for several years from what I understand. If we speak that tongue in public, then we should expect someone will overhear. (That's a whole other conversation and I do have thoughts pro and con.)
So, it makes sense, but it might mechanically hurt players. I guess it all depends on how the Red Wizard faction is handled by staff these days.
The faction, like others as far as I know, is given a light touch by staff. I do think the language issue needs to be addressed because it is out of step with lore.
Thayan is not a spoken language. It is written only.
What about making Mulhorandi a open choice for Languages, but have Thayan auto granted at Lvl 1 for Red Wizards of Thay and Thayan Knights?
I think that's reasonable as long as we don't actually speak Thayan and leave it for written communication. Also, Thayan the language is based on infernal and thoross (as much as the English alphabet is based on Germanic languages), so it's not going to be an impenetrable code.
I would not say that Thayan is written only. Its script is certainly different, and Thayans and Mulhorandi can understand each other verbally, but they are two different nations and cultures so I'd say there would logically be enough differences to consider them two separate languages. But this would be in the same way as the Nordic languages are, separate languages but largely mutually intelligible.
In a better world, you should be able to take one and be able to more or less understand the other.
Notably they are distinguished as separate languages here, rather than just two dialects of Mulhorandi. Though certainly the script is probably the biggest factor in this, rather than the spoken form.
I return to my first post though: In my opinion these distinctions are only relevant if our server was set in the East where you'd have a significant number of Thayan and Mulhorandi characters and these differences in language would be an important distinction. And even then, both should be able to understand each other verbally. Here in the Western Heartlands I feel things are better served by just having one language (Mulhorandi) for both as such characters are so rare and would be able to mostly understand each other.
Tarina — The Witch of Darkhold, a dealer in spirits and black magic
Rhifox wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:54 pm
I would not say that Thayan is written only. Its script is certainly different, and Thayans and Mulhorandi can understand each other verbally, but they are two different nations and cultures so I'd say there would logically be enough differences to consider them two separate languages. But this would be in the same way as the Nordic languages are, separate languages but largely mutually intelligible.
Thank you for the explanation.
I feel that if you are not a native speaker, it might be difficult to know immediately what someone speaking another dialect is saying. My real-world example is I learned German in high school and almost minored in it in college. However, I learned what my teacher called high German which I was told was mainly spoken in the north. Then I went on vacation across southern Germany and had to really concentrate to understand. It was OK after a couple of weeks, but still not to the level of my northern German schooling. Dutch, while close, is very much out of my league.
Allowing Thayan Knight and Red Wizard to get one or the other for free would be a good compromise and realistic to boot. The simplest solution is to nicely ask a DM for help with a second language
DaloLorn wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:00 am
Funnily enough, I think anyone who speaks Common is automatically allowed to understand either Chondathan or Thorass, I can't remember which...
The Common spoken throughout Faerûn was properly called Thorasta by linguists and peoples from other continents, such as Zakhara. The purest version of Thorasta was spoken mainly in the Western Heartlands, from Way Inn in the north to Beregost in the south, and from Baldur's Gate in the west to Hill's Edge in the east.[7]
7: (Thomas M. Costa (1999). “Speaking in Tongues”. In Dave Gross ed. Dragon Annual #4 (TSR, Inc), p. 26.)
On that premise my intercontinental foreigner reffers to the local tongue as Thorasta, though it certainly isn't the only name. The geographic area outlined in that paragraph basically covers almost the entire playable server area.
The languages are not hard coded, that's part of the DMFI scripting.
There's a check to see if someone has the language and translate if they do. Simply adding a line for if the language is Thayan to also check Mulhorandi and a check for if the language is Mulhorandi to also check if they know Thayan. Then if players had only one language they could still only speak the one language but they could understand either.
This isn't a hard thing to code.
This is handled by functions in dmfi_inc_langexe, green text is what to add or change. I expect there are already custom changes in there for the language spells, so this is more of a guideline than a cut and paste fix.
// function to determine if oListener knows thayan or mulhorandi when either is spoken
int DMFI_IsLanguageGroupKnown(object oListener, string sLang) {
if (DMFI_IsLanguageKnown(oListener, sLang)) return TRUE;
sLang = GetStringLowerCase(sLang);
if (sLang == "thayan" && DMFI_IsLanguageKnown(oListener, "mulhorandi")) return TRUE;
if (sLang == "mulhorandi" && DMFI_IsLanguageKnown(oListener, "thayan")) return TRUE;
return FALSE;
}
void DMFI_TranslateToSpeakers(object oSpeaker, string sTranslate, string sLang, object oUI)
{ //Purpose: Sends sTranslate to any nearby speakers of sLang
//Original Scripter: Demetrious
//Last Modified By: Demetrious 1/10/7
int nTest;
int n=1;
if ((sLang==LNG_COMMON) || (sLang=="")) return;
I really hate when I see things just coded for single exceptions like that instead of making it based on 2da files. If it's done with 2das then future developers can easily make changes, if it's done by handling special cases in scripts it becomes a nightmare trying to track things like this down when trying to make changes.
A better way. Use a 2da of languages with a language group column. The languages in the group need to be in the file consecutively, this makes it go a lot faster and this could end up running into instruction limits.
// function to determine if oListener knows any languages in the same language group as sLang
int DMFI_IsLanguageGroupKnown(object oListener, string sLang) {
sLang = GetStringLowerCase(sLang); // languages are stored lower case
int nRow = Search2DA(LANGUAGES_2DA,LANGUAGES_LABEL_COL,sLang); // find the row for language being spoken
string sGroup = Get2DAString(LANGUAGES_2DA,LANGUAGES_GROUP_COL,nRow);
if (sGroup == "" || sGroup == "****") // if no group is specified, just do default check
return DMFI_IsLanguageKnown(oListener, sLang);
// I've commented out a nRow>0 check, as Get2DAString is supposed to return empty if the row doesn't exist according to the function description.
// A similar check may be needed later if this isn't true
while (/*nRow>0 && */ Get2DAString(LANGUAGES_2DA,LANGUAGES_GROUP_COL,nRow-1) == sGroup) --nRow; // go to the top of the group
do {
sLang = Get2DAString(LANGUAGES_2DA,LANGUAGES_LABEL_COL,nRow);
if DMFI_IsLanguageKnown(oListener, sLang) return TRUE;
++nRow;
} while (Get2DAString(LANGUAGES_2DA,LANGUAGES_GROUP_COL,nRow) == sGroup); // stop checking if the group name changed.
// Since we already know sGroup isn't empty and going past end of file should return an empty string this shouldn't result in infinite loop
return FALSE; // language in group wasn't known
}
This is untested code, I merely wrote it here. There's probably a typo or two.
Kurvallaxion Brax - Knight of the Baldur's Gate Thayan Enclave
To understand the difference (and this in my opinion) you have to look at the lore and culture behind each of its people.
First, The Mulan is said to have revolted in the past against their rulers, the High mages of Imaskari causing the cities to fall, the few members of those cities that survived fled to the Underdark becoming the Deep Imaskari race. The Mulhorandi and the Thayan are basically descents of the Mulan (They are still classified as Mulan IIRC) "The history of the Mulan was deeply intertwined with the history of the nations of Mulhorand, Unther, Chessenta, and Thay" Source
Thay is more or less the equivalent of the Byzantine Empire, At least in terms of architecture.
Mulhorand would be the equivalent of Egyptians.
Mulhorand is also a region south of Thay
That being said
Mulan is the People
Thayan and Mulhorandi are Dialects
Mulhorandi is a Subgroup language spoken by Thayans and Mulhorandi
Mulani is the Parent language
Basically English is a language = Mulani
American vs Canadian is a Dialect = Thayan or Mulhorandi
Were Dialects can often be interchangeable they are not always. I do believe that Thayan and Mulhorandi are mutual intelligibility like Danish, Norwegian and Swedish. An example of Dialects that can not be understood by each other would be Mandarin and Cantonese, both are Chinese but not mutual intelligibility.
I hope this clears it up for you.
//Map and Images below to show what I mean//
Map of Region
Mulhorand
Thayan City (inside)
byzantine empire architecture
Thayan City (Outside)
Nevarra Stayanoga"A wolf will always be a wolf." Thar Kogan"A har Thar!" Theodar Battleforge: "Oi! What dis do?"*BOOM*
