Skilled Half-Orcs

[InTheFlesh]

As title. Half-orcs are already badly penalized skill-wise for being half-orcish with the -2 INT; would it not make sense for them to be just as skilled as the other half-human race, half-elves?

Mind you, I don't even mind the -2 INT penalty. But having 60 less skill points to invest at 30 versus any given human or half-elf is overkill.

[tankteddy]

As one of my 2 mains is a Halforc I disagree. I feel I have plenty of skills to fit the RP I have laid out including H/MS survival Set trap craft trap, spot, tumble and enough umd to use wands. All with only 14INT.

The issue is not Half orc but class choice and feat choice. Now the blooded feat is not bad if you can invest to utilize the power of it otherwise the initiative bonus is nice. Also Half orc were breed to be better then normal Orcs often to lead a tribe or such. However there stats kinda dont line up with this. ((Below, link for Source)) However I dont think I want to see Grey orc changed to fit that Nor do I think Half orcs should be buffed anymore then they have been. NOTE: I do think Full blood Surface orcs should be able to get daylight adapt for free though! Not fair that you lose a feat and No other race has to. ((Drow don't count as they should not be on the Surface aside from RP anyways.))

Orcs As Characters
Orc Traits (Ex)
Orcs possess the following racial traits.

+4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.
An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon.
Favored Class: Barbarian.
The orc warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.

Half-Orcs
These orc-human crossbreeds can be found in either orc or human society (where their status varies according to local sentiments), or in communities of their own. Half-orcs usually inherit a good blend of the physical characteristics of their parents. They are as tall as humans and a little heavier, thanks to their muscle. They have greenish pigmentation, sloping foreheads, jutting jaws, prominent teeth, and coarse body hair. Half-orcs who have lived among or near orcs have scars, in keeping with orcish tradition.

Half-Orc Traits (Ex)
Half-orcs possess the following racial traits.

+2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
Medium size.
A half-orc’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Abyssal.
Favored Class: Barbarian.

[edmaster]

Or .....just remove the Intelligence Penalty?

[Rhifox]

Or .....just remove the Intelligence Penalty?

Considering horcs have more attribute penalties than bonuses, I'd be fine with this. Or reducing it to -1 at least, to match the +1 Constitution.

[tankteddy]

My point is Half orcs Dont need it. If they want to make the change to -1 or 0 for INT I am not complaining. I would love more skill points or to rebalance with a bit more Dex or something.

[Whirlwind]

I'd be for them getting skilled and the intelligence penalty changing to -1.

Half-elves get skilled for some reason and a load of racial bonuses.

Half-orcs live 60-80 years so thematically it makes more sense they'd have it too - they mature faster, on par with humans vs a half-elf living 180-200 years.

It's a nice nod to the human aspect of the character too - not just that which the orc blood infers.

The +1 con and blooded feats are nice bonuses for the half-orc on BG and I realise we're going by 3/3.5 rules, but a +2/3 racial bonus to intimidation might be nice (for the gray orcs too), even with the charisma penalty chopping it in half a bit.

Orcs are supposed to be fierce and intimidating to most other humanoid races after all - just as elves are meant to be beautiful to most others.

[Steve]

I too would really appreciate Half-Orcs getting the Skilled feat/characteristic.

As a Player that finds it important, even necessary, to invest skill points in social skills for my Chracters to be fully realized in the BGTSCC, that a Half-Orc has an innate deficiency in Skill points because of the -2 INT, always makes the building and profession options less appealing.

As to the argument, since Half-Elves have the Custom Change to receive the Skilled Feat, it does make sense that Half-Orcs share in the “blood” that grants such a race-based Feat. And, Half-Orcs have more negatives (-4) than positives (+3) on Abilities.

While I would agree that currently a Half-Orc can be used to make good builds, the range is limited, when being half-human should translate into having greater flexibility in professional choice (related to Humans lack of multiclassing penalty...up to a point).

[Hawke]

I've been a long time advocate of equalizing the half bloods.

If HElves have skilled feat because of human parent, then give the same to the HOrcs.

Then give HOrcs the same level of bonus feats/stats of orc flavor as the HElves get from their elven parent.

When HElves got changed that was pretty awesome. Then HOrcs just got changed and still the third class citizen of the realms.

I mean check it out.

HElves https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Half-Elf

HOrcs https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Half-Orc

HOrcs get confined to barbarian, get bloodied and get an offset number of stat points.

HElves get +33 free skill points, bonuses to spot, search. Listen, diplomacy, bluff, several weapon feats, any class favored , bonuses to enchantments saves, sleep immunity.

I mean that is a really really good place for HElves.


HOrcs are bleh compared.

[tankteddy]

They also have Darkvision (which Helves don't) a +2 to STR where Half-elves don't get a bonus to any stat like Humans. The half Elven Change simply made half-elves Closer to Humans with a Few Elven flares like Weapon Prof and Bonus to skills. Orc even in PNP and NWN2 does not get a lot of bonuses like Elves or Humans. In PnP, Orcs get -2 to all Mental stats and only a +4 on STR.

That being said, As a half-orc player I would not mind seeing the following Changes:

Half-Orc
Size: Medium
+2 Strength, +1 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma
Favored class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc's barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an XP penalty. Ferocity runs in a half-orc's veins.
Weapon Proficiency(Gray Orc): Half Orcs are proficient with greataxe and longbow.
Scent: Can detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. This allows the user to track hidden and invisible targets when using the Track ability.
Long Gait: Gray orc base land speed is 40 feet. Their gait is long and loping and they can cover great distances quickly.
Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Blooded: Character gains a +2 bonus on Initiative and a +2 bonus on Spot checks.
Skilled: 4 extra skill points at first level, plus 1 additional skill point at each following level.
Partial Skill Affinity (Intimidate): +1 racial bonus on Intimidate skill checks.
Partial Skill Affinity (Survival): +1 racial bonus on Survival checks


Grey Orc
Size: Medium
Ability adjustments: +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
Long Gait: Gray orc base land speed is 40 feet. Their gait is long and loping and they can cover great distances quickly.
Light Blindness: Gray orcs suffer a -d3 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks in sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. They can also get blinded by the exposure to sunlight temporarily.
Darkvision: Gray orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Scent: Can detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. This allows the user to track hidden and invisible targets when using the Track ability.
Favored Class: Cleric. Although gray orcs are comfortable with the savage life of the barbarian, they tend to be calmer and more collected than northern orcs, focusing their rage and hatred inward. This allows them to excel as clerics of the warlike orc deities.
Weapon Proficiency: Gray Orcs are proficient with greataxe and longbow.
Track feat
Blooded: Character gains a +2 bonus on Initiative and a +2 bonus on Spot checks.
Skill Affinity (Intimidate): +2 racial bonus on Intimidate skill checks.
Skill Affinity (Survival): +2 racial bonus on Survival skill checks.
Level adjustment +1: Gray orcs are slightly more powerful and gain levels more slowly than other, more common races. It will take more experience for a gray orc to reach level 2 than it would for normal races, for example.

[Hawke]

Dark vision/ low light vision really is close to the same thing.

Dropping the stat changes and keeping scent or gait plus the weapon proficiency and skilled... maybe a partial affinity for spot, listen , intimidate... that would bring them in the same one and in line with other races.

[tankteddy]

Dark vision/ low light vision really is close to the same thing.

Dropping the stat changes and keeping scent or gait plus the weapon proficiency and skilled... maybe a partial affinity for spot, listen , intimidate... that would bring them in the same one and in line with other races.

Blooded Give +2 to spot and initiative So no need to give them partial affinity ((Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.))
And this is why I think they should have Blooded on Both orc and Halforc to carry over (Granted it shouldn't really add anything nor does it effect them mechanicly being an Orc.)

Spot and survival to me are the most fitting Non-RP skills for them And Intimidate, and maybe Taunt, Are perfect RP skills for them.

As for the stats the only change that has been ever made was +1 to Con. for a -2 to two stats I figured it would be fair to leave that every other Non ECL race only suffer -2 to one stat not two

Edit: Dark vision Allows prerep to Cave stalker. a good class for Rangers to use Hips in Caves with out Assassin or SD

[Hawke]

Do HOrcs really need attribute adjustments? Talking comparatively with other half bloods.

Also cave stalker? Really? Half drown have dark vision no?

[tankteddy]

Half Drow Yes, but thats cause Under dark. As for the stats, the +1 to con is Negligible its not going to make or break any build. if anything I might save someone some gold buying a belt of growth or +3 con item over a +4 Con item.

[Hawke]

That is what I am trying to say. The other half bloods don't have increased or decreased ability scores. Why must HOrcs?

I dont care about the bloodied feat, I just didn't want it on the table for someone to dispute combat advantage that the other half bloods don't get.

If change is to come, it should come in a similar established package and not something wildly different.

HElves don't get attribute changes why a HOrc?

I only say one of the orc non weapon feats because both long gait and scent are very powerful feats.

[Whirlwind]

They get the strength bonus because normal mountain orcs are strong asf (+4 I think) and it's inherited.

HElves get spell immunity to sleep and resistance to enchantments. HOrcs don't get these - why must HElves?

Here's how I'd enhance HOrcs then:

Half-Orc
Size: Medium
+2 Strength, +1 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma
Favored class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc's barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an XP penalty. Ferocity runs in a half-orc's veins.
Weapon Proficiency(Gray Orc): Half Orcs are proficient with greataxe and longbow.
Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Blooded: Character gains a +2 bonus on Initiative and a +2 bonus on Spot checks.
Skilled: 4 extra skill points at first level, plus 1 additional skill point at each following level.
Skill Affinity (Intimidate): +2 racial bonus on Intimidate skill checks.

Were it me, I'd maybe give HElves +2 charisma given they're supposed to be excellent diplomats.

Or maybe +1 dex / +1 cha to account for what their elven parent passed down.