A plea for help: Sneaking Wizard GISH thing

[TravelingVagrant]

So like the title, I'm looking for help with a build. Here's what I have right now:

https://nwn2db.com/build/?338101

As it stands, I figured the low AB could be off-set with various wizard buffs - GMW, GH, etc. I am just an overly confident builder, so some opinions / advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[Louvaine]

I'm looking at the build and have some feedback. I'm not the best out there, but I'll do my best to help! Actually played around with idea of sneaking wizard for quite a while now, so I'll totally send you what I had been putting together.

Before I give feedback, what do you want to do with this build? Seems like dual wielder that'll buff themselves before combat and then strike from shadows while also having plenty of skill points for that jack of all trades feel. Is that the idea?

[Rhifox]

You should probably look into Daggerspell Mage. Unlike AT, it gets Medium BAB. It also gets free Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and you'll want to grab Greater and Perfect after that, to increase the amount of attacks you have on the first flurry.

Alternatively, you might consider grabbing Spell Focus Transmutation and Augment Form, and doing your sneak attacks with Shapechange. HiPS should be usable while polymorphed I believe.

[TravelingVagrant]

I'm looking at the build and have some feedback. I'm not the best out there, but I'll do my best to help! Actually played around with idea of sneaking wizard for quite a while now, so I'll totally send you what I had been putting together.

Before I give feedback, what do you want to do with this build? Seems like dual wielder that'll buff themselves before combat and then strike from shadows while also having plenty of skill points for that jack of all trades feel. Is that the idea?

Yeah, that was primarily the idea. Have the ability to buff, dual wield daggers, and HIPS to fight in melee for decent damage. I enjoy having the skillpoints for added flexibility.

You should probably look into Daggerspell Mage. Unlike AT, it gets Medium BAB. It also gets free Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and you'll want to grab Greater and Perfect after that, to increase the amount of attacks you have on the first flurry.

Alternatively, you might consider grabbing Spell Focus Transmutation and Augment Form, and doing your sneak attacks with Shapechange. HiPS should be usable while polymorphed I believe.

I was looking into Daggerspell mage - I actually use it on the character I am currently using - and the medium BAB is appealing, but I don't think I'll get much use out of the dagger damage to touch spells. Ideally I won't be casting much ranged spells, for character purposes, so primary damage should be coming from melee attacks.

Having said that, I don't know actually how effective this build would even be damage wise - with only *7d6 sneak attack and dual daggers, the output seems like it would be fairly low? Not sure.

[Zkenic]

The damage on your current build is going to be terrible. Your low AB will reduce how many blows will land. Your lack of gtwf means you will have less attacks out of flurry, and your SA dice are going to be pitifully low.

Rogue + Wizard builds suffer in three main ways. (1) low AB. (2) low CL if you want HiPS (3) low SA dice, mainly due to trying to maintain (1) and (2). I think the best rogue/wizard builds skip on HiPS, unless you are planning to mainly pvp with the build its unneeded for pve. Feint + invisibility + stealth is enough to carry a rogue/wizard through the monsters of the server.

Still, with what you requested, that is buffs, daggers, and HiPS I would recommend...

https://nwn2db.com/build/?338107

6wizard/8EK/8assassin/8AT - BaB ends up being 21, so with PWTF you get 10 attacks from your flurry. You get 8d6 sneak attack. You get HiPS. CL is 25, which is ok but not great. Also I threw together that build rushed. It might be better to do something like CE + deadly defense, or AT + CE, instead of getting that extra 2 dex.

[Arn]

What Zkenic said. I used to main a Wizard/Rogue type. I can confirm that this build is about as good as it gets, in terms of mechanical viability (I played a variation of it, with higher CL, lower AB, and only GTWF). Just watch out for dispels/Mords.

[TravelingVagrant]

The damage on your current build is going to be terrible. Your low AB will reduce how many blows will land. Your lack of gtwf means you will have less attacks out of flurry, and your SA dice are going to be pitifully low.

Rogue + Wizard builds suffer in three main ways. (1) low AB. (2) low CL if you want HiPS (3) low SA dice, mainly due to trying to maintain (1) and (2). I think the best rogue/wizard builds skip on HiPS, unless you are planning to mainly pvp with the build its unneeded for pve. Feint + invisibility + stealth is enough to carry a rogue/wizard through the monsters of the server.

Still, with what you requested, that is buffs, daggers, and HiPS I would recommend...

https://nwn2db.com/build/?338107

6wizard/8EK/8assassin/8AT - BaB ends up being 21, so with PWTF you get 10 attacks from your flurry. You get 8d6 sneak attack. You get HiPS. CL is 25, which is ok but not great. Also I threw together that build rushed. It might be better to do something like CE + deadly defense, or AT + CE, instead of getting that extra 2 dex.

I like how this build looks a lot, thanks!

I do have a question though - don't I need 19 int to cast 9th level spells?

[Zkenic]

The damage on your current build is going to be terrible. Your low AB will reduce how many blows will land. Your lack of gtwf means you will have less attacks out of flurry, and your SA dice are going to be pitifully low.

Rogue + Wizard builds suffer in three main ways. (1) low AB. (2) low CL if you want HiPS (3) low SA dice, mainly due to trying to maintain (1) and (2). I think the best rogue/wizard builds skip on HiPS, unless you are planning to mainly pvp with the build its unneeded for pve. Feint + invisibility + stealth is enough to carry a rogue/wizard through the monsters of the server.

Still, with what you requested, that is buffs, daggers, and HiPS I would recommend...

https://nwn2db.com/build/?338107

6wizard/8EK/8assassin/8AT - BaB ends up being 21, so with PWTF you get 10 attacks from your flurry. You get 8d6 sneak attack. You get HiPS. CL is 25, which is ok but not great. Also I threw together that build rushed. It might be better to do something like CE + deadly defense, or AT + CE, instead of getting that extra 2 dex.

I like how this build looks a lot, thanks!

I do have a question though - don't I need 19 int to cast 9th level spells?

You do, but an item will count towards that. Get a +4 int helm and you are golden.

[TravelingVagrant]

I like how this build looks a lot, thanks!

I do have a question though - don't I need 19 int to cast 9th level spells?

You do, but an item will count towards that. Get a +4 int helm and you are golden.

Ah, perfect, thank you. I wasn't sure that the EB from items would count.

[Louvaine]

I'm not sure about that CL 25... You really have to dodge those Disjuntions with that low of a CL or you're going to have a bad time.

I guess I'd stick to Shadow Dancer for HiPS and threw out Assassin to keep CL high. Hells, you can get there without Rogue levels, if you like, and keep CL at 30. There is also some wisdom to not actually needing HiPS. It's really good, but it's easy to find spots to hide in PvE. And if not, Invisibility is easily accessible. At wand, if not at anything else. Something to consider, especially if epic areas are known or if practice is possible (I'm totally willing to show you around, I meant it when I said I love you now! We can make a date out of it!).

I like EK. I'd use Daggerspell instead of AT. I'd entertain the idea of Tenser's Transformation for when you're positive spells won't be needed anymore.

I wonder if someone who player around with it more could say if Bladesinger would work?

[Zkenic]

I'm not sure about that CL 25... You really have to dodge those Disjuntions with that low of a CL or you're going to have a bad time.

I guess I'd stick to Shadow Dancer for HiPS and threw out Assassin to keep CL high. Hells, you can get there without Rogue levels, if you like, and keep CL at 30. There is also some wisdom to not actually needing HiPS. It's really good, but it's easy to find spots to hide in PvE. And if not, Invisibility is easily accessible. At wand, if not at anything else. Something to consider, especially if epic areas are known or if practice is possible (I'm totally willing to show you around, I meant it when I said I love you now! We can make a date out of it!).

I like EK. I'd use Daggerspell instead of AT. I'd entertain the idea of Tenser's Transformation for when you're positive spells won't be needed anymore.

I wonder if someone who player around with it more could say if Bladesinger would work?

Giving me whiplash here. There are a few good Bladesinger builds, but they are not rogue/wizard builds.

[Deathgrowl]

I'm not sure about that CL 25... You really have to dodge those Disjuntions with that low of a CL or you're going to have a bad time.

I guess I'd stick to Shadow Dancer for HiPS and threw out Assassin to keep CL high. Hells, you can get there without Rogue levels, if you like, and keep CL at 30. There is also some wisdom to not actually needing HiPS. It's really good, but it's easy to find spots to hide in PvE. And if not, Invisibility is easily accessible. At wand, if not at anything else. Something to consider, especially if epic areas are known or if practice is possible (I'm totally willing to show you around, I meant it when I said I love you now! We can make a date out of it!).

I like EK. I'd use Daggerspell instead of AT. I'd entertain the idea of Tenser's Transformation for when you're positive spells won't be needed anymore.

I wonder if someone who player around with it more could say if Bladesinger would work?

You're going to run into various problems here with a gish. Part of the gameplay of a sneak attacker is always going to be dancing in and out of stealth. Without HIPS, you're stuck with greater invisibility or nothing. Corner sneaking mid-fight isn't really viable anywhere except the minotaur ruins, where you can instead door sneak.

If you're going shadowdancer, you are spending one out of four maximum classes on HIPS alone. And then you have wizard, which is a requirement. That leaves you with two more classes to find AB and damage somewhere. AB is easy enough with EK, but you probably want you other class to at least have medium BAB in order to get a somewhat comfortable AB in the end. You don't qualify for Daggerspell Mage, since that requires sneak attack. Arcane trickster would give you some damage at least, but it has low BAB, and either way you don't qualify for it without sneak attack, like Daggerspell Mage.

And delving into Bladesinger or Dragonslayer will give you AB, but you'll have practically no damage what so ever. And you're going to end up with maximum 26 CL, since the first level of EK and the three levels of SD already spent your practice spellcaster feat.

So no, shadowdancer doesn't make for a good gish, unfortunately. Works for hips blasters, though!

The wizard/ek/assassin/at classic is probably the most viable one, despite its lower CL. Too bad it loses out on evasion.

[matelener]

I like Wizard 12 / Swashbuckler 5 / SD 3 / EK 10 with GTF and maxed INT. It does not relay on Hipsing to deal damage, so you can save it to avoid dispels.

[Steve]

My experience is that with CL 25, in far too many epic Areas, a PC will be drained of life—and fun!—by being dispelled far too often. And even if you learn to be key-quick and “dodge” this Dispels with HiPS, it’s not really reliable. Okay, maybe it is a challenge to play, and that is appealing, but also tedious.

And absolutely, if you are going DEX, you want Evasion + Uncanny Dodge, to keep that precious AC cause you will get flat footed if taking on multiple mobs at a time.

You may as well consider low magic gish, such as Wiz3 / Rogue 7 / Assassin 10 / AT 10. Great SA dice, take practiced spellcastwr for Assasin to extend duration of spells. Rely on UMD—lots of UMD—and make a good go of balancing DEX and INT.

[Theodore01]

This one is an 'old' classic. Fun to play but a Sorc.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?30749