Niches And You; Defining Your Character's Role!

[Asmodea]

I can say that the narrower a focus a Character has the more 'oomph' it generally has!

If I meet character who constantly relates that they are: "Great at fighting dragons but only on tuesday in the rain." and I happen to meet a dragon... on Tuesday... and it is raining. I am going to immediately think of that character OOC and ICly say something like: "I know a guy." probably much to the confusion of a DM but hopefully eventual amusement! (Or maybe it was planned all along!)

Also I can say it is really fun to take a bunch of characters with narrow specialties and trying to cobble together a solution to a problem. "We have an explosive expert, a pick pocket and a poet." turns into the PM to the DM going: "Can we put together a poetry slam and have the pickpocket try to reverse pickpocket a bomb into the antagonist's gold purse?" DnD gold right there.

It also encourages and supports RP across conflicting characters! An example is that if someone wants a really powerful Transmutation spell cast... even if your character ICly hates the Red Wizards they can begrudgingly admit that the Red Wizards are probably the 'best' person to cast the spell. Thus fostering sensible RP spread!

[Deathgrowl]

What if my character's niche is being best at everything? :((((((((((

OK, more seriously, good post! Mary Sues are quite grating. And niches do make characters more interesting, both for the player playing them and for those interacting with them. It's something to define the character by.

I'd like to add, though, that it is also a bit discouraging when you have specialised your character into a particular niche so much that he or she is very - very - clearly one of the absolute best, perhaps the best at this particular thing, and then this niche is just completely ignored when it becomes a valuable niche. It would be nice if people also recognised and respected that some characters have strong niches. For the sake of inclusivity and all that!

[Hoihe]

I'd like to add, though, that it is also a bit discouraging when you have specialised your character into a particular niche so much that he or she is very - very - clearly one of the absolute best, perhaps the best at this particular thing, and then this niche is just completely ignored when it becomes a valuable niche. It would be nice if people also recognised and respected that some characters have strong niches. For the sake of inclusivity and all that!

I completely agree, it's super disheartening when you're basically built up your whole character, mechanically and story wise, around their niche only to be overlooked when the time comes. I think there's something to be said about proper advertisement of that niche, though some are harder to do than others. Personally I like to inject what my character does into a conversation whenever it comes up, really reinforce it and hope it pays off when someone needs a guy who specializes in building magically warded outhouses that prevent the uprising of feces-elementals.

There is unfortunately a mechanical aspect to it, too. If two parties, be it player-player or player-DM have differing ideas on what a given ability score or skill modifier/rank means - it can lead to extreme cases of someone say RPing a master shipbuilder based on sourcebook DCs (20 mod Engineering enough for almost every human ship without failure barring rush jobs), then someone comes along and demands twice that for something super basic. If done just the right way, it can assassinate that character's reputation, and their build may not have had enough int score to dump it all the way to 33 (due to mechanical viability needs).

[Azroth]

In general, I have disdained for characters that are good at all things and everything under the sun. Just as much as guilds groups clans or whatever kids call them nowadays. I prefer to have some flaws and a focus, and I like it when I see others like such.

Besides, when others seek to be good at all things and try to preach it in RP? I 100% guarantee they will be lackluster in DM events not having the skill in it and watch the crowd sigh realizing they were trying to be god yet know nothing.

I feel it's boring otherwise. It's like someone trying to play tank healer and damage dealer all in one in a mmo, it just doesn't work and is far from effective.

[Rhifox]

Honestly, I find the opposite. I find a lot of people are overspecialized. They might *claim* to be good at everything, but they'll have zero investment in the diversity of skills or classes necessary to back that up. What I find most often is the issue Hoihe brought up: people over-investing in something that they don't actually play out in their character's RP, and using that to stomp all over a player that ICly specializes in it but hasn't dumped a full 33 points in it because they're going for a more realistically-rounded RP build.

When you actually play a jack of all trades concept, you're not 'good' at anything. Decent at a lot of different stuff, but always overshadowed by any specialist, which most people are. But that's no less valid for RP than specializing is.

[Asmodea]

Jack of All Trades is a good archetype for social characters, narrow specialty for less social characters.

The reason I say this is that a Jack Of All Trades is good at filling in the gap left behind after trying to gather all the narrow specialty characters. They will be rarely sought out specifically, but if they are seeking out people they can do 'well enough' at the role that they could not find to fill.

So I suppose my advice would be: If you find yourself constantly trying to find and involve other characters, a more generalized character is useful. Whatever you can't find you can do after searching as hard as you can for specialists.

If you are hoping to be sought out, narrower specialty will make it easier for people to think of your character when seeking out a skill set.

[Azroth]

Honestly, I find the opposite. I find a lot of people are overspecialized. They might *claim* to be good at everything, but they'll have zero investment in the diversity of skills or classes necessary to back that up. What I find most often is the issue Hoihe brought up: people over-investing in something that they don't actually play out in their character's RP, and using that to stomp all over a player that ICly specializes in it but hasn't dumped a full 33 points in it because they're going for a more realistically-rounded RP build.

When you actually play a jack of all trades concept, you're not 'good' at anything. Decent at a lot of different stuff, but always overshadowed by any specialist, which most people are. But that's no less valid for RP than specializing is.

From a mechanical standpoint? Yes, others are over-specialized.
From an RP standpoint? People are under-specialized.


As I basically said more or less above yours. That said if others want to be something IC? They should have a build to back it up. As some have like 1 rank or try and use gear to back it up when it kinda doesn't work that way. if at all.

[Kitunenotsume]

I would like more profession skills or craft skills, as it would help back up my RP. (Profession Tavernkeep or Cook plx)

On the other hand, I'm certain that skill point dilution will simply aggravate the inability for RP characters to actually attempt to server content.


In regards to both, Sayushi hasn't actually seen a dungeon in most of a year and seems to be making decent progression without wandering far from her normal zones and not engaging in combat - at the cost of no individual income.

I also think there seems to be some interpretations involved in this conversation that skills investments tend to be either a dip or maxed (1 or 33), but having middling values like 10 ranks in a skill I think is plenty sufficient to demonstrate investment and aptitude sufficient for reasonable RP to claim a niche. This is particularly the case in this server since a lack of combat viability is a severe detriment for any character given the dramatic inflations to combat.

[Trinket]

Another thing to take away from this is the reminder that all characters are affected by time. When you focus on training one area of skills, your skill in another area will decrease. A niche doesn't just have to a particular set of skills, but also a particular person in a unique position to use them.

It's why there are wizards who expand their intellect but don't have bulging muscles and a high constitution. And those that do, have sacrificed some spell casting ability to do it. Everything is give and take.

Nobody has to feel like they need to fill a niche but it's fun to look at your character, identify what they do well, and then upsell it.

[Hoihe]

I would like more profession skills or craft skills, as it would help back up my RP. (Profession Tavernkeep or Cook plx)

On the other hand, I'm certain that skill point dilution will simply aggravate the inability for RP characters to actually attempt to server content.


In regards to both, Sayushi hasn't actually seen a dungeon in most of a year and seems to be making decent progression without wandering far from her normal zones and not engaging in combat - at the cost of no individual income.

I also think there seems to be some interpretations involved in this conversation that skills investments tend to be either a dip or maxed (1 or 33), but having middling values like 10 ranks in a skill I think is plenty sufficient to demonstrate investment and aptitude sufficient for reasonable RP to claim a niche. This is particularly the case in this server since a lack of combat viability is a severe detriment for any character given the dramatic inflations to combat.

This is why I advocate strongly for standardising DCs for skills - so people can build in ways to support their roleplay without being forced to all-in at cost of viability.

I would say 15 ranks in perform is a pretty impressive musician, but most people treat any rolls under 50 or some absurd number to be "incompetent or amateurish." Which is fine for a bard or rogue, but say a fighter who is RP'd as a trained musician (as some cultures' knights and nobles are wont to be) can only afford 10 or 15 ranks. In many ways, it feels that they might as well have spent 0 skill points went all in on spellcraft even if it did not fit their RP as there at least a +3 boost to their saves.

And I think a well-educated knight isn't a "Jack of all trades", just a traditional chivalric concept.

Although, even high skill point builds suffer under skill point dilution if their niche happens to be spread over a lot of skills. Sea captains, going by Spellwrack's required skills would need: Profession(Sailor),Diplomacy and/or intimidate, Knowledge(Geography), Knowledge(Engineering), Survival and/or knowledge(Nature) - all of which are needed to pilot a ship as an experienced captain. Sailor RP is a niche, but by sourcebooks you need to be a "jack of all trades" to support your RP (altho 10 mod in each is more than enough there, with most in geography and profession. Here it feels 33 or might as well 0)

[JustAnotherGuy]

When it comes to skills and niches, we have to remember that you aren't setting up your skill against a DC. You are setting up your skill against everyone else's skill. And your RP against everyone else's RP. Otherwise, it's not niche. For instance, many on the server claim to be healers. But the ones who want to fill that niche attempt to max out the healing skill, and also many have knowledge of or look up actual first aid techniques so that their RP is more realistic. Others go even further and learn about medieval healing techniques so that they can RP their healing more time period / setting appropriately.

So you have "healers". Or someone who thinks they are niche because they threw some points into healing.
Then you have someone who stands out above the rest because they maximized their points.
Then you have someone who creates good RP by having the OOC knowledge to RP the situations, rather than saying "I roll heal and know what to do".
Then you have the top tier players who RP their healing so well, it creates truly memorable moments in time.

To be truly niche, you have to build up your RP to surround something. Not just invest a few points and say, "I'm proficient, therefore I'm specialized".