Items that add Sneak Attack

[cosmic ray]

Items that add sneak attack don't stack with existing sneak attack levels provided by classes or with each other, rendering them almost completely useless. Before the assassin nerf, such items were very good for assassins, but now not even that. Is this possible to fix? There are a few "epic" items around with one or two extra SA dice, but, sadly, they hardly deserve to be called epic on account of this bug.

[yyj]

viewtopic.php?p=743090#p743090

[edmaster]

Not a Bug, They don't stack when it comes from an Item, unless it is a different type of sneak dice, like Arcane Trickster, Shadow Thief of Amn, etc...,etc.

[EasternCheesE]

Not a Bug, They don't stack when it comes from an Item, unless it is a different type of sneak dice, like Arcane Trickster, Shadow Thief of Amn, etc...,etc.

Well, you can't have arcane trickster or DSM without already having SA, so it basically is a nice addition for blackguard or bodyguard etc classes.

[mrm3ntalist]

Items that add sneak attack don't stack with existing sneak attack levels provided by classes or with each other, rendering them almost completely useless. Before the assassin nerf, such items were very good for assassins, but now not even that. Is this possible to fix? There are a few "epic" items around with one or two extra SA dice, but, sadly, they hardly deserve to be called epic on account of this bug.

What were the assassin nerfs?

[Hoihe]

Items that add sneak attack don't stack with existing sneak attack levels provided by classes or with each other, rendering them almost completely useless. Before the assassin nerf, such items were very good for assassins, but now not even that. Is this possible to fix? There are a few "epic" items around with one or two extra SA dice, but, sadly, they hardly deserve to be called epic on account of this bug.

What were the assassin nerfs?

Assasin only grants 1d6 death attack dice, the rest are granted as sneak attack.

Result is it fixes manyshot shenanigans, while retaining the same damage (unless your entire damage was death attacks and you were using a +1d6 sneak attack item, so you lose 1d6 dmg)

edit: multi attack to manyshot

[yyj]

Why call bug fixes "nerfs"?

A way to discourage devs working on things by the way, claiming they are nerfing something when it was just a bug fix with death attack...

[cosmic ray]

The manyshot bug wasn't fixed, though, was it? Its impact was simply reduced by nerfing a class feature instead of fixing the bug itself. There's a huge difference. The bug is still there, only applying to 1d6 DA instead of 5d6.

Now assassins have absolutely no use for the epic version of that pins dagger with 2d6 SA. Since rogues already had no use for it in the first place, that item, along with the rest of the epic stuff adding +1 or +2 SA, has become rubbish.

[yyj]

The manyshot bug wasn't fixed, though, was it? Its impact was simply reduced by nerfing a class feature instead of fixing the bug itself. There's a huge difference. The bug is still there, only applying to 1d6 DA instead of 5d6.

Now assassins have absolutely no use for the epic version of that pins dagger with 2d6 SA. Since rogues already had no use for it in the first place, that item, along with the rest of the epic stuff adding +1 or +2 SA, has become rubbish.

No it didn't , that item would go amazing for one of the current builds I am playing.

But my main point is, if someone is blaming devs in another thread for nerfing stuff and ruining classes then in a different thread they go and ask the same devs to make changes that they would like to see is not going to achieve much, devs arent our employees and they don't work for us so that we go and make a list and ask them to work on what we want.

[EasternCheesE]

The manyshot bug wasn't fixed, though, was it? Its impact was simply reduced by nerfing a class feature instead of fixing the bug itself. There's a huge difference. The bug is still there, only applying to 1d6 DA instead of 5d6.

Now assassins have absolutely no use for the epic version of that pins dagger with 2d6 SA. Since rogues already had no use for it in the first place, that item, along with the rest of the epic stuff adding +1 or +2 SA, has become rubbish.

Manyshot is a hardcoded feat and it literally can't be fixed without having totally custom implementation of it.

[cosmic ray]

The manyshot bug wasn't fixed, though, was it? Its impact was simply reduced by nerfing a class feature instead of fixing the bug itself. There's a huge difference. The bug is still there, only applying to 1d6 DA instead of 5d6.

Now assassins have absolutely no use for the epic version of that pins dagger with 2d6 SA. Since rogues already had no use for it in the first place, that item, along with the rest of the epic stuff adding +1 or +2 SA, has become rubbish.

Manyshot is a hardcoded feat and it literally can't be fixed without having totally custom implementation of it.

Yes, I know it can't be fixed for that reason. It was never fixed between 2006 and now, and it will never be and it isn't any fault of anyone around here. What has been achieved, however, is a very unfortunate assassin nerf to circumvent the inability of anyone aside from Bugsidian to fix this bug. At any rate, that is hardly the point of this thread.

This thread is but a suggestion to fix (yes, fix), if it's even possible, the inability for sneak attack items to stack with sneak attack feats. Whoever used the toughness feat as an example is definitely not thinking about this issue properly, as that feat does not work in stackable "levels" as such; either you have the ability or you don't. Sneak attack is designed to stack with itself so that whenever you receive a SA die, even if you already have a million dice of it, you get that on top. This is objectively demonstrable and impossible to argue against. Therefore, this behaviour in NwN2 is very strange (what isn't strange in this game, right?) because SA not stacking between items and feats makes those items useless precisely for the type of characters who would want them: those with the feats.

Anyway, it's a suggestion and not a command. I'm certainly not going to engage anyone in a pointless argument for a dozen pages or more, who happens to believe that a rogue getting a couple of extra SA from items is going to break the fabric of reality. If the suggestion isn't appreciated or understood, well, tough luck for all the rogues and friends out there, I guess. We'll just stare at and caress our SA items and call them "Precious" whilst everybody else sleeps. The sun will keep rising, I'm sure.

Also, YYJ, you got it completely wrong. My earlier complaints about nerfs and my recent suggestions go hand in hand: it's precisely because I care about BGtSCC and the work the devs do that I both voice my negative opinion of what I think doesn't work and suggest improvements to certain things that I think could work. These are opinions and suggestions, not assault and battery. Disagreeing with someone and saying an idea is bad are not acts of violence. People never complain when praise for changes is offered though, do they? When praise is offered, you're never told it's none of your business anyway because the devs do what they want and they are not your employees for you to feel you have a right to praise them. Well, it's still only my opinion whether I'm criticising or praising, so is it valuable or not? Which is it?

Remember: suggestions are not commands and negative opinions are not aggressions.

Edit: and praise is DEFINETELY not caressing. Don't feel like I'm touching any of you when I say something like the recent cleric improvements are great.

[Kitunenotsume]

In my observation, any item that offers stats, class abilities, or feats overlaps with existing things unless that are of explicitly type. They offer an opportunity to increase breadth without being useful to increase peak capacity directly.

An Item that grants 2d6 sneak attack is similar to an item that grants 2 Natural Armor. If you already have a source of 5d6 sneak attack or 5 Natural armor respectively, they overlap, and you take the better. They wouldn't combine to give you 7d6 SA or 7 Nat AC.

Every class that grants progression in an ability, be it Turning, or Sneak Attack, or Spell Progression will usually explicitly say that it stacks with prior sources to increase the feature, but items very rarely do and are calculated after innate character and class benefits.

In my analysis, an item that grants sneak attack dice is not likely to be useful to a class that already has it, but would be useful to other classes. It is the same reason why a Rapid Reload crossbow is pretty meh to a character who already has Rapid Reload, or Extra Turning equipment to a PC with Divine Vengence - because said character isn't the intended beneficiary of the item.

[mrm3ntalist]

Items that add sneak attack don't stack with existing sneak attack levels provided by classes or with each other, rendering them almost completely useless. Before the assassin nerf, such items were very good for assassins, but now not even that. Is this possible to fix? There are a few "epic" items around with one or two extra SA dice, but, sadly, they hardly deserve to be called epic on account of this bug.

What were the assassin nerfs?

Assasin only grants 1d6 death attack dice, the rest are granted as sneak attack.

Result is it fixes manyshot shenanigans, while retaining the same damage (unless your entire damage was death attacks and you were using a +1d6 sneak attack item, so you lose 1d6 dmg)

edit: multi attack to manyshot

Are existing assassin builds affected by this change?

[Kitunenotsume]

A quick check of the changelog turns up this:

Revision: 357
Author: Valefort
Date: Sunday, September 20, 2020 3:46:34 PM
Message:
Changing assassin death attack 2,3,4,5 to give regular sneak attack feats in order to mitigate the manyshot death attack bug.

Feeblemind TLK description update, it never was an RTA spell.
----
Modified : /bg_soz_tools/cls_feat_asasin.2DA
Modified : /bg_soz_tools/spells.2DA

Source: viewtopic.php?p=902741#p902741

Any assassins leveled or RCRed since then will definitely be affected. Older assassins may need checking on an individual basis for any Death Attack higher than 1d6.
The impact of this change permits Assassin to qualify for high-sneak dice requirements such as Improved Sneak Attack, while mitigating the impact of the manyshot exploit.

[Endelyon]

This is working as intended, weapons with Bonus Feat: Sneak Attack aren't meant for people to use that already have sneak dice.