What Drow Thread(s) Taught Me

[Shadowspinner70]

TLDR; I'm witchy.

This thread is actually the spawn of a conversation I've had with a player I consider to be like an older brother, and see him as immensely wise. So if people want to compile nuggets of wisdom in this thread started by a nugget, awesome; good vibes work too. Wisdom, wholesome memes, and hopefully discussions but not arguments. Y'all frustrate me to no end, but I do love you and I love moderating. I'm also gonna screw up and have to eat my own words. A lot.

So I really hope that you all can give me your opinion and we can have a discussion of what's right, what's wrong, and how to change them. I also hope that every thread will go this way and may the day come that we never need moderation again. Granted, that last part won't happen but shhhhhh. I still have two more threads to make, one informational about drow culture, and I hope you'll all enjoy those.

1. Racism means actively murdering things you don't like, even if they don't attack first. Carah not trusting Aunrae for several weeks (months) and Fenwick flinching or reaching for his weapon whenever she got outwardly frustrated isn't racism. Assuming tieflings or hin are criminals or that elves are haughty bastards isn't racism either. You know what is? Killing on sight. Everything needs to go from 0 to 100. We call genocidal hatred racism and racism is . . . everywhere, to be honest, but our characters inaccurately stereotyping another PC really only earns angry people. Just call it what it is, because there is a difference and both are very setting appropriate. Real life, it's trash. In this setting, appropriate.

2a. We're allergic to compromise. If the proposed rule change for the north that everyone misinterprets and twists happens to fall through, I haven't seen anyone consider giving the Underdark the Upperdark or making it an open KOS zone beyond two-ish people. Oh, and if someone says anything that pokes a hole in your argument or might have the chance to change your mind, ignore that argument, keep going, and twist someone's words if need be. Even better, twist up someone's actions.

2b. I've seen plenty of all-or-nothing arguments. It's nigh impossible to create an immersive environment where both sides are comfortable role-playing their characters, given our available tools. Trying to force it can and will only force more people to tune out or actively disengage from others. Like, why are elves the jerks for decrying their ancient enemies, drow and orcs? They're literally not. And other people want to avoid PvP because there is currently no way for their characters to avoid that on sight. That's why we need some wiggle room. Because both of those playstyles are valid and should be allowed to breathe.

3a. We're volatile. The fact that AThorn had to say that he might lose his UD-er buds for, gasp, having a different perspective is jarring. Surfacers are afraid of being ganked the moment they step in the north with this rule change and us Underdarkers need to be aware of that. It's impossible to change their opinions unless we show and make sure that won't be the case. Proving that is on us. Underdarkers, I know. It's hard to put into words a years-long frustration and I know many surface players feel ultimately apathetic to it. They may say they're not, but then they support or promote ultimately harmful things. Understand their perspective, please, and save your anger for truly unfair things. You don't need to die on a hill that ultimately might not change much if you already RP on the surface because the rule is that you need an RP reason.

3b. People are constantly arguing in a thread meant to be for gathering opinions, sharpening those opinions, the like. As a Moderator, this is deeply frustrating and seems to be the trend with so many threads. The most recent, now 17-page thread is now feeling simultaneously off-topic and deeply distracting from its original purpose, and I can only imagine how Summerbreeze feels. Help us help you. Don't insult people, don't derail the thread, don't be ready to throw virtual fists, and follow the rules of the forums and we will help you by staying out of your hair.

Plus a whole lot more. We're people. We're kind to each other, nasty to each other, think we understand things when they don't, and are altogether self-absorbed and lack self-awareness all in one. We use "it's human nature" as an excuse to be awful to one another, but don't use that same excuse for those of us who refuse to use the toilet, instead favoring our parents' gardens.

People have PMed me about this and that, sometimes privately disparaging and delegitimizing perspectives of others. I've participated in some of it. "So and so doesn't understand," "so and so is malicious with this opinion," "this person is just stupid." Someone might very well be stupid, it happens; some people are malicious, but most people see right through that; and no, people probably don't understand. People probably aren't being malicious anyway. They have different experiences, different perspectives, and different opinions, so respect those please. So kill people with kindness, and no, treating someone kindly doesn't mean giving them their way all the time.

Y'all and your RP playstyles are all valid. I avoid PvP like the plague but I play a drow so if Steve wants to put Aunrae's head on a glitter-encrusted spike because his PC is a fabulous Sheverashian (idk if it is), he's welcome to try. If I'm going to play my Gargauthian priestess, I'll keep her human-sacrificing self away from people who want to keep things wholesome and just stay out of it. If a paladin isn't in the mood for PvP today, that's why your favorite glitter-throwing drow keeps teleportation scrolls; you get to stay in line with your RP and be confrontational and I'll just have her leave before her head is severed from her body. If I ever join the Zhents publicly, awesome, you can shun that PC ICly and I'll finesse a couple things.

And Snarfy, your fantastic, sour blueberry of an elf absolutely can shoot a couple arrows at me.

Edit 1: Rephrasing and clarification.
Edit 2: Reorganizing so it's not an immediate smack. It's not meant to be that, despite the copious sarcasm in some spots.

[Steve]

I play a drow so if Steve wants to put Aunrae's head on a glitter-encrusted spike because his PC is a fabulous Sheverashian (idk if it is), he's welcome to try.

Hi!

Thanks for your opinion(s) here in the OP.

The way I see it is this: there are many Players on this Server that want conflict, Character v. Character, Role-play. There are equally, but I'd argue more, Players that DO NOT WANT THIS. And everyone has their subjective right to want what they want, in their game time. So, some seek out X, some avoid Y. I think the Server is big enough to support it all.

But on a personal level, for me, I want to support Canon Forgotten Realms Lore. And my debate is often based on "how can we be the most "true" to that, the 2e timeline and the 3.5e rule set, all that applies to the Forgotten Realms, and to BGTSCC in particular.

I'm also the first to admit that the NWN2 game mechanics hardly even scratch the surface of equaling the experience of a PnP game can, since more PnP is a game in the imagination, the mind, a shared experience in time and place (your bud's house on Friday night around the dining room table, natch).

So, and often, so many "arguments" are impossible to settle because the mechanics of our Server/Game Engine SIMPLY CANNOT support what the Core Forgotten Realms Lore has given us (from Sourcebooks).

I understand then that of course, attempts will be made to mask-it-all-up into a palatable pill to swallow, often with the initial desire to "make the game more enjoyable for...all."

But that is rub: you can't make the game world enjoyable when you cross some lines (canon lore), and not others (canon lore!! .

Another way to say it is: OOC Rules can be really bad. Probably the less Rules the better, though, the Server needs some Rules. OOC Rules for OOC issues.

But the "other thread" of SummerBreeze's is about OOC Rules for IC issues. That just makes it exponentially difficult!!!

[Ravial]

Personally, I haven't learned anything new, than what I had already known about this community.

Granted, I don't have the same optimism and expectations as I did before.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Looking at the last thread, there's 60% of voters who support a more liberal and equal environment, and that's all that matters to me. Statistics are unbiased.

[Shadowspinner70]

Optimism is hard, but yknow, the best we can do is try to be good humans to each other. Or elves, in Rav's case. And yeaaaah.

Balancing what we want is hard to do. It's not even exclusive to the UD debates! I just used it as a good example! The constant debates of what's valid and what's not. This lorebook, that lorebook, this opinion, that opinion, these interpretations. The holy trinity of debates: clergy of any kind, elves, and drow.

Either way, our DM Team is doing their best. They step in when they're needed, they provide their wisdom, and they deserve to be surrounded by kittens and praise. Even if they're allergic to cats. That's what benadryl is for.

[Ewe]

I like the notion of trying to treat each other better and having better communication, like in general and in life, not just in this game, that's what Drow taught me.

[Rhifox]

I like the notion of trying to treat each other better and having better communication, like in general and in life, not just in this game, that's what Drow taught me.

So the real treasure was the drow we met along the way?

[Azroth]

I like the notion of trying to treat each other better and having better communication, like in general and in life, not just in this game, that's what Drow taught me.

So the real treasure was the drow we met along the way?

In case no one caught on, the gif, it's part of a running joke on my end, that part. Due to some IC happenings here and there with some Drow having better communications skills IC than other nondrow that they may or may not be linked to.

[Young Werther]

Something something arguing on the internet?

[Tsidkenu]

Statistics are unbiased.

But they can be artificially skewed with fake data

----------

There's a word people in communities like this need to learn and love: collaboration.

There can be an overemphasis on individualism. I am one character, one player, amongst the many. I want to do what is best for me and my character in every situation. I don't want to be on the receiving end of perceived wrongs or negative outcomes, DM or otherwise. It's my story; I want it to progress according to my will. I am guility of much of this.

However, some of my most memorable experiences were when players collaborated with me to be on the receiving end of my whims (ask Lelande Lloros! and Sir Anthem! What champs you are, Arn & Darradarljod; others also, you know who you are). But be prepared to do like in return, which I regret not doing more of. However I did do some. And in fact, they were some of the most memorable and powerful experiences I had as a player, to say nothing of character transformation. Being on the receiving end and collaborating with my opponent's wins is a humbling place to be. We don't want our characters to lose, to die, to be humiliated. We can feel ourselves ensnared in our character's fate.

I remember being on the receiving end of Shadowspinner's expertly crafted IC drow blackmail. Schezalle was stuck between a rock and a hard place. It wasn't something I ever envisaged happening to my devoute Lolthite Bae'qeshel. It was a humbling and humiliating experience. But it was some of the most amazing and moving RP I have ever partaken.

When was the last time you asked that other player what they're trying to do, and if you can help their doing it? Did you offer to be a sacrifice on their altar in exchange for something else for your own in the future? Were you prepared for that surprise "Oh sh*t, really? Wow!" moment that brings a smile to your face despite the heaviness because your have to give up something that is important to you to make it work? I've had that smile, and I know plenty of others who were willing to have it too.

Someone once told me, "Life is about two people joining together to create a third new something."

How are you helping others create that third new something, BGTSCC?

[Azroth]

There's a word people in communities like this need to learn and love: collaboration.

I will drink to that, as I preach that all the time. I still recall to this day when you stole that kill from under that Bhaalyn to murder my Illmateri. That was years ago, vaguely recall all the details in full as I was sleep-deprived during the event.

OOC communication and trust go a long way if you try, one will be surprised what happens when you just... ask. In your attempts to do my cleric in, I felt i was in good hands as you wanted to check I was alright in between. For that, thank you.

[Shadowspinner70]

Not gonna lie, Tsid, I was 14-15 and had no clue what I was doing. Maybe I was 16, idk. But I was bumbling around and finessing whatever I could to fix up Aunrae's many mistakes.

So, not gonna brag but... totally going to brag that I managed to outwit one of my favorite rivals for Aunrae, who will forever be in my heart, by feeling and grasping blindly. Schezalle was and forever will be one of the few people she considers dangerous.

So folks, don't be afraid to stumble around like a confused teenager and possibly lose. Losing is incredibly fun, particularly with a skilled RPer, and sometimes you might accidentally win through the power of pure chaos and lots of superglue. Then it becomes a much more significant victory after a string of losses.

And although Amn's subjugation of Maztica is a while away still, I'll need your advice on something!

[DaloLorn]

Regarding point 1: I'm sorry, but it just doesn't compute. Racism is totally a lot more than just actively murdering things. Not that I see why defining (or redefining, I guess) the term has any bearing on the topic; by your own admission, it's setting-appropriate, no matter how you want to call it.

As to point 3b: I'm probably one of the targets here. But... the fact that opinions were requested on such a hot topic is bound to lead to people trying to diminish opposing opinions. If they're lucky, they'll do it by convincing the opposition that they're wrong. If they're less lucky, they'll do it by convincing everyone else they're wrong, or not even do it at all. To ask people to provide opinions on any topic ultimately invites conflict proportional to the distance between the most extremely opposed opinions, and our extremes are... quite far apart.

This issue is compounded by the fact that some of the participants grossly misread any number of things about either the OP or the surrounding context, and then loudly announce their ignorance at the risk of drowning out those voices that know what they're talking about. I think it's generally in the community's best interest that such ignorance is countered, lest it inaccurately color the opinions of newcomers. (I wonder which side of my argument I'm on, here... )

Another way to say it is: OOC Rules can be really bad. Probably the less Rules the better, though, the Server needs some Rules. OOC Rules for OOC issues.

But the "other thread" of SummerBreeze's is about OOC Rules for IC issues. That just makes it exponentially difficult!!!

The tricky part, I think, is that the OOC rules were originally targeted at an IC issue... provided I'm following your distinction here. And those rules might even be creating IC issues. I'm a little fuzzy on that, because I didn't get a lot of sleep tonight, but as I see it, the only way SB's thread could be about OOC rules for IC issues is if either the rules were targeted at prior IC issues, or created new IC issues when they were implemented.

[Rhifox]

Regarding point 1: I'm sorry, but it just doesn't compute. Racism is totally a lot more than just actively murdering things. Not that I see why defining (or redefining, I guess) the term has any bearing on the topic; by your own admission, it's setting-appropriate, no matter how you want to call it.

She was being sarcastic. About how a lot of people seem to think the only valid response is whipping out weapons to go a-murderin'.

[DaloLorn]

Regarding point 1: I'm sorry, but it just doesn't compute. Racism is totally a lot more than just actively murdering things. Not that I see why defining (or redefining, I guess) the term has any bearing on the topic; by your own admission, it's setting-appropriate, no matter how you want to call it.

She was being sarcastic. About how a lot of people seem to think the only valid response is whipping out weapons to go a-murderin'.

Yeah, it got cleared up in Discord shortly after my post. It's good of you to answer it here, though, where everyone can see it! I thought she was going to do that, and then I forgot about it altogether.