Throwing Weapons and Melee Combat

[Most Horrible]

In Pen and Paper, whenever you make use of throwing weapons, such as daggers, axes, darts, what else not, you can also use them in melee. In NWN2, throwing weapons are weapons that can only be thrown...

Therefore, I would suggest that if you have Weapon Focus or Specialization in a thrown weapon, you would also get such feats for a similar enough melee weapons. I would suggest such pairings as Throwing Axes and Hand Axes, Darts and Daggers, and Shuriken with Unarmed.

This would only work one way, you would have to get the Weapon Focus and Specialization feats for the Throwing Weapons in order to get the paired set of Melee Weapon feats.

Oh, and in order for such build to work, you would kind of also have to spend a feat on Weapon Finesse, Brutal Throw, or potentially Zen Archery with Intuitive Strike.

Or if it is possible to make a melee version of Throwing Axes, Darts, and Shuriken and make it work just like the regular "Flails" and the off-hand "flails" we currently have on the server. Although, it might only really work Brutal Throw builds. The basement of Blushing Mermaid does sell some of those off-hand "flails" if someone wants to try out if those work with Weapon Finesse. I think those do work with the Weapon Focus & Specialization (Flail) feats.

[artemitavik]

hm, I don't think the NWN2 code allows for thrown weapons to be melee-able. I could be wrong. I would love melee-able throwing weapons, but *shrug* not sure that's a possibility with the engine.

[Blackman D]

not that it is a bad idea, but they are literally not the same weapon so no...

[YourMoveHolyMan]

As an avid user of thrown weapons, I cannot back this. The current thrown weapons are better than the melee only equivalents in bg, with the understanding that they're both limited, by stacks carried, and a temporary investment.

If they're allowed as permanent melee weapons, they'd need to be reduced in their values, which would kill the incentive to invest in them.

[Most Horrible]

As an avid user of thrown weapons, I cannot back this. The current thrown weapons are better than the melee only equivalents in bg, with the understanding that they're both limited, by stacks carried, and a temporary investment.

If they're allowed as permanent melee weapons, they'd need to be reduced in their values, which would kill the incentive to invest in them.

The best Darts in game:
Velvet Darts
Damage Bonus: Slashing: 1d4, Enhancement Bonus: +4, On Hit: Poison: DC=30 1d2 Constitution Damage

Sniper Dart
Damage Bonus: Bludgeoning: 1d8, Enhancement Bonus: 4, Massive Criticals: 2

The best Shuriken in game:
Deadly Caltrops
Damage Bonus: Slashing: 1d4, Enhancement Bonus: 4, On Hit: Slow: DC=20 10% / 2 Round, On Hit: Wounding: DC=20


The best Throwing Axes in game:
Cryptrunners Axe (
Damage Bonus vs. Undead: 1d4, Damage Bonus: Divine: +2, Enhancement Bonus: +4

The Mad Sorcerer
Damage Bonus: Bludgeoning: 1d8, Enhancement Bonus: +4, On Hit: Silence: DC=20 50% / 1 Round

Trollaxe
Damage Bonus: Fire: 1d8, Enhancement Bonus: +4, On Hit: Ability Drain: DC=20 Consitution

(Those were taken from this list: http://bgtscc.gicker.ca/biglist.php)

Well, if someone does see the effort to make "melee" throwing weapons, in similar vein to the off-hand flail, then I would expect these "melee" weapon variants to be adjusted to melee weapons statistics and to come with the melee weapon prices. Thus you would have to pay 100-500k for one of such when bought from a shop. The difference being that you could make use of your Throwing Weapon Mastery, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specilization feats with them... Which in my opinion would increase the number of potential users of throwing weapons. Edit: (Even if these throwing weapons would be worse in melee than any other weapon type of similar nature.)

not that it is a bad idea, but they are literally not the same weapon so no...

Flails and 'flails' are not the same weapon, and yet the Weapon Focus feats do work as a way to circumvent the in game engine limitations to let people have their off-hand "flails."

[yyj]

Take into consideration according to 3.5 PHB a thrown weapon used in melee gets -4 to attack no matter the feats.

[Blackman D]

Flails and 'flails' are not the same weapon, and yet the Weapon Focus feats do work as a way to circumvent the in game engine limitations to let people have their off-hand "flails."

custom weapon, very bad example for this case, everything else aside that is just how they went with making them work

[Most Horrible]

Take into consideration according to 3.5 PHB a thrown weapon used in melee gets -4 to attack no matter the feats.

I will if you can name a book and its page number that states such a penalty.

Weapons that are not made or intended to be thrown will suffer that -4 AB penalty if they are ever thrown, while no such mention seems to be made in when throwing weapons such as: "daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets" are actually used in melee. That would be the page 113 of the 3.5 edition Player's Handbook.

And if you attempt to argue that a throwing weapon is actually an "Improvised Weapon" when used in melee, and would hence suffer from that -4 AB penalty on attack rolls, just have a look at the weapon tables listed on the pages 116 and 117 of the 3.5 edition Player's Handbook. The previously mentioned thrown weapons are quite literally all over the place: you can find them under one-handed and two-handed melee weapons, in addition to having some also listed under the ranged weapon categories. I guess Wizards of the Coast has simply attempted to save some ink and space on a piece paper by not having additional "throwing" category in addition to the Light Melee Weapons, One-Handed Melee Weapons, Two-Handed Melee Weapons, and Ranged Weapons, and the need to list down overlapping rules for just one or two weapons.

Thus if we get into the nitty-gritty of things, in Pen and Paper, you would be able to use Rapid Shot with weapons such Darts, Javelin, Shuriken and Nets, but not with any of the other Throwing Weapons as those are not listed under the Ranged Weapons.

Oh, and a Dart is literally described as a small Javelin, and if you look at the weapon drawings on the page 115 of the Player's Handbook, a ranged weapon such as the Javelin is quite literally of far sturdier make than the One Handed Melee Weapon known as a Short Spear, which shares its circumference with the previously mentioned Dart.

And yes, yes, D&D weapon and armor categories have never made much sense in real life... But a Dart in Melee is quite literally used just as any other pointy stick. You stab things with it.

[Most Horrible]

Flails and 'flails' are not the same weapon, and yet the Weapon Focus feats do work as a way to circumvent the in game engine limitations to let people have their off-hand "flails."

custom weapon, very bad example for this case, everything else aside that is just how they went with making them work

On the contrary, because the NWN2 game engine itself imposes some limitations that do not exist in Pen and Paper, where nothing actually stops a player from dual wielding Flails. In NWN2, you simply cannot place the regular Flail into your off-hand. Thus, sometimes the only method of making something work kind of correctly is through some 'janky' solution.

[Blackman D]

there will not be, at any point, the ability to take one feat and gain two different specializations

having some melee weapons with a thrown ability was something that was brought up but i dont remember what happened with it

[Most Horrible]

there will not be, at any point, the ability to take one feat and gain two different specializations

Yes, yes, which means a no to pairing throwing weapons with other weapons of similar damage dice, etc. However, throwing weapons are not just things you throw, because those can be used in melee as well when it comes to combat. Hence the suggestion of making "melee versions" of throwing weapons as one solution to this problem and/or game engine oversight.

having some melee weapons with a thrown ability was something that was brought up but i dont remember what happened with it

Have a look at the "Javelins" sold in that Banite Fortress, it is a "Short Spear" with six uses of a custom throw weapon.

[Most Horrible]

Anyhow, the Blacksmith in Darkhold sells +2 and +4 Javelins.

How the Javelin throw works should be as follows:

Javelin Attack

Damage: 2d8, +2d8 per the number of attacks a character has (2d8 at BAB0, 4d8 at BAB6, 6d8 at BAB11, 8d8 at BAB16, 10d8 at BAB21, 12d8 at BAB26).

Reflex Save: DC 15 + Dex mod (or 15+Str mod if PC has Brutal Throw). The DC increases by one point at BAB 23, 26, and 29.

I suppose something like the above could be one way to actually make 'Returning Throwing Weapons' by making a weapon with 'infinite uses' of modified 'Arrowsplit.'

And yes, Short Spears are not Javelins, and that whole Ranged Touch attack is not how throwing weapons work in D&D, but once again, the game engine is janky and sometimes the best you can get is some kind of janky implementation. But you could also get the other throwing weapons that are currently missing from the game, such as Light Hammers, clubs, and other spears.

And speaking of Throwing Weapons in general, those tend to have too much range before the AB penalties begin to apply.

[Rhifox]

And yes, Short Spears are not Javelins, and that whole Ranged Touch attack is not how throwing weapons work in D&D, but once again, the game engine is janky and sometimes the best you can get is some kind of janky implementation. But you could also get the other throwing weapons that are currently missing from the game, such as Light Hammers, clubs, and other spears.

We may actually soon be able to make it work properly. Dae's been working at breaking the engine code for getting true AB, which would allow us to easily make it a proper ranged attack roll rather than ranged touch.

If that works out, we can look into giving throwing options to other weapons as well.

[Most Horrible]

I hope it works out then.