Athkatlan Triparate Rework suggestion

[Flatted Fifth]

The way athkatlan triparate works now, a pure class rogue or cleric will not see any benefit from the feat in the vast majority of situations
until level 22, and then they'd only get +1 ac, due to their BAB progression. Early game you'd have to be using both flurry of blows and
haste at the same time to get any use out of the feat.


How Athkatlan Triparate Works Now:

Code: Select all

BAB	Attacks/Round Normal	With Feat Active		With Feat + attack from Haste or Flurry
1-5	1			1 attack, +0 ac, +0 dmg		2 attacks, +0 ac, +0 dmg
6-10	2			2 attacks, +0 ac, +0 dmg	3 attacks, +0 ac, +0 dmg
11-15	3			3 attacks, +0 ac, +0 dmg	3 attacks, +1 ac, +1 dmg
16-20	4			3 attacks, +1 ac, +1 dmg	3 attacks, +2 ac, +2 dmg
21-25	5			3 attacks, +2 ac, +2 dmg	3 attacks, +3 ac, +3 dmg
26+	6			3 attacks, +3 ac, +3 dmg	3 attacks, +4 ac, +4 dmg

Suggested Re-work:
Requirements: Base Attack Bonus 6+, Dexterity 13
Use: Selected


You get half your normal number of attacks, rounded down. You cannot lose more than 4 attacks in rhis way . For each attack lost, add 1 dodge ac and 1 damage.

Suggest making number of attacks with feat turned on based on the BAB.
1 at BAB 6 - 15
2 at BAB 16 - 25
3 at BAB 26 plus
otherwise same as original, +1 ac and dmg for each attack lost, off hand not affects, max 4 bonus, yadda yadda

How This Would Work:
[code]BAB Attacks/Round Normal With Feat Active With Feat + attack from Haste or Flurry
6-10 2 1 attack, +1 ac, +1 dmg 1 attack, +2 ac, +2 dmg
11-15 3 1 attack, +2 ac, +2 dmg 1 attack, +3 ac, +3 dmg
16-20 4 2 attacks, +2 ac, +2 dmg 2 attacks, +3 ac, +3 dmg
21-25 5 2 attacks, +3 ac, +3 dmg 2 attacks, +4 ac, +4 dmg
26+ 6 3 attacks, +3 ac, +3 dmg 3 attacks, +4 ac, +4 dmg[/code]

With this rework the feat starts becoming worth getting around BAB 11, which is lvl 15 for a pure class rogue or cleric.
At lvl 30 the rework is functionally identical to the original, it's just useful earlier.

[EasternCheesE]

Honestly, this sounds like a neat idea. But, the problem with TWF still persists. NwnScript doesn't have separate function to reduce amount of offhand attacks, thus attacks are always substracted from main hand.
Another complication is that, IIRC, scripts related to getting PC BAB are somewhat wonky. I'll launch team discussion regarding this to see if Devs/Dms are okay with such a change. Codewise, switching from attack count to BAB shouldn't be big issue unless game wonkiness kicks in.

Though, keep in mind that your suggestion raises the floor, but cuts the ceiling for medium/low bab builds.
Say, currently, my PC has 18 BAB and 7 APR (GTWF). With old Athkatlan, i can get 0 mainhand attacks and 3 offhand attacks for +4 AC stuff. If it scales off BAB, he will never be able to get more than +3 AC.

[Rhifox]

Another complication is that, IIRC, scripts related to getting PC BAB are somewhat wonky. I'll launch team discussion regarding this to see if Devs/Dms are okay with such a change. Codewise, switching from attack count to BAB shouldn't be big issue unless game wonkiness kicks in.

We have functions for getting PC BAB and attack bonuses now.

[EasternCheesE]

Another complication is that, IIRC, scripts related to getting PC BAB are somewhat wonky. I'll launch team discussion regarding this to see if Devs/Dms are okay with such a change. Codewise, switching from attack count to BAB shouldn't be big issue unless game wonkiness kicks in.

We have functions for getting PC BAB and attack bonuses now.

Ah, that's neat. Huge thanks to Dae!

[Flatted Fifth]

Honestly, this sounds like a neat idea. But, the problem with TWF still persists. NwnScript doesn't have separate function to reduce amount of offhand attacks, thus attacks are always substracted from main hand.

Neither the original feat nor my re-work idea affect the off hand in any way. Neither of them are intended to.

Say, currently, my PC has 18 BAB and 7 APR (GTWF). With old Athkatlan, i can get 0 mainhand attacks and 3 offhand attacks for +4 AC stuff. If it scales off BAB, he will never be able to get more than +3 AC.

Pretty sure you can't get less than 3 attacks with Athkatlan Triparate, unless the description in the wiki is wrong. With the feat as it is now, with 18 BAB and GTW you will get 3 main hand attacks, 3 off hand attacks, and PLUS ONE AC etc. My re-work would work out better for you.

Actually, I missed that Athkatlan Triparte currently counts off hand attacks in the limited to 3 attacks. My idea is to ignore the off hand completely, so Yes, it would be slightly worse for someone with greater twf but infinitely better for literally everyone else.

[EasternCheesE]

Honestly, this sounds like a neat idea. But, the problem with TWF still persists. NwnScript doesn't have separate function to reduce amount of offhand attacks, thus attacks are always substracted from main hand.

Neither the original feat nor my re-work idea affect the off hand in any way. Neither of them are intended to.

Say, currently, my PC has 18 BAB and 7 APR (GTWF). With old Athkatlan, i can get 0 mainhand attacks and 3 offhand attacks for +4 AC stuff. If it scales off BAB, he will never be able to get more than +3 AC.

Hello there. The way Athkatlan triparate work with two weapon fighting is such:
1) game stores overall amount of attacks PC can have in a variable (be they mainhand, offhand or from bonuses).
2) the function which affects amount of attacks (increase/decrease) does only affect mainhand, that's actually written on wiki.
3) thus, currently, with 18 bab and gtwf, i have 4 mainhand attacks and 3 offhand attacks, 7 in total. This makes AT reduce my mainhand attacks to 0, since i have 7 attacks total, -4 for 4 AC bonus. AT doesn't distribute the amount of lost attacks by hands, but it counts amount of attacks overall. If i had, say, 5/3(mainhand/offhand) attacks, i'd end up with 1/3 attacks.
This is sad, but knowing it, i can use AT while dual wielding to face 0/3 scenario and get 4AC.
Thus, with the change, having 18 bab, i will only be able to get +3 AC even with haste since it starts scaling off bab. Honestly, i just believe AT shouln't have been opened for dual wield at all given the lacking functions.


Your change idea is beneficial for single wielders, but makes it a bit worse for lowish bab dual wielders.

[Flatted Fifth]

Honestly, this sounds like a neat idea. But, the problem with TWF still persists. NwnScript doesn't have separate function to reduce amount of offhand attacks, thus attacks are always substracted from main hand.

Neither the original feat nor my re-work idea affect the off hand in any way. Neither of them are intended to.

Say, currently, my PC has 18 BAB and 7 APR (GTWF). With old Athkatlan, i can get 0 mainhand attacks and 3 offhand attacks for +4 AC stuff. If it scales off BAB, he will never be able to get more than +3 AC.

Hello there. The way Athkatlan triparate work with two weapon fighting is such:
1) game stores overall amount of attacks PC can have in a variable (be they mainhand, offhand or from bonuses).
2) the function which affects amount of attacks (increase/decrease) does only affect mainhand, that's actually written on wiki.
3) thus, currently, with 18 bab and gtwf, i have 4 mainhand attacks and 3 offhand attacks, 7 in total. This makes AT reduce my mainhand attacks to 0, since i have 7 attacks total, -4 for 4 AC bonus. AT doesn't distribute the amount of lost attacks by hands, but it counts amount of attacks overall. If i had, say, 5/3(mainhand/offhand) attacks, i'd end up with 1/3 attacks.
This is sad, but knowing it, i can use AT while dual wielding to face 0/3 scenario and get 4AC.
Thus, with the change, having 18 bab, i will only be able to get +3 AC even with haste since it starts scaling off bab. Honestly, i just believe AT shouln't have been opened for dual wield at all given the lacking functions.


Your change idea is beneficial for single wielders, but makes it a bit worse for lowish bab dual wielders.

How about a new feat then?


Thoughtful Strike
Requirements: BAB 6+, Dex 13, Possibly Int 13.

I would def like that better than combat expertise. Drop my 3 lowest ab attacks instead of penalize all my attacks? Yes please.

[Flatted Fifth]

Or just make this feat or a new one "You get half your normal attacks, rounded down. You cannot lose more than 4 attacks in this way. For each attack lost, you gain +1 ac and plus 1 damage"

Obv cancel the feat if they cast a spell, and require a bab of 6 or more

[EasternCheesE]

First of all, Athkatlan Triparite is already among the best combat feats for quite a number of builds AFAIK. Making it even better (even if it makes sense) would make other combat feats even less desirable. On second, the overall feat is a bit "money for nothig" to me since people already trade their less useful attacks (cause they are way less likely to hit) for AC and dmg. Moreso, they can easily switch it on and off.
It's quite similar to Northlander Hewing in this regard, but NH, at least, takes away 2 AC.

After reconsidering, i believe, that AT doesn't need further improvement at least until any big combat feat reevaluation and rebalance. Though, it's just my personal opinion and i don't represent whole staff here. I've made a discussion topic for it in QC forums so staff can discuss their ideas there. If there'd be any conclusion, i will make my best to put it here.

[Flatted Fifth]

for quite a number of builds that use gtw, you mean.

people with a two handed weapon or a shield deserve being stuck with combat expertise, wich is pretty sucky?

updated OP