Mystic theurge comments

[Hawke]

I understand all the work put into everything so I'm not ungrateful.

I just am underwhelmed by the Mystic theurge mechanically. I'm not sure what enhanced RP spin that could be brought out right now like red wizards or druids or favored souls or techsmiths.

Let's talk requirements.

The skill requirements are a bit steep. With the short supply of skill points, having 20 points be required beyond what you would normally have is higher than most. Including what you would already be getting , that is 36 points.


Then the feats. It takes 3 feats. Really it's only 2,, but Iron Will, skill focus concentration and a metamagic feat.

So out the gate to get this class you lose 36 skill points and 3 feats.

So what do you get?

d4 hp, 2 skill points per level and a low BAB, extend spell and a +5 CL to both your casting classes (which zeros out losing 5CL to take the class) and a one time per day ability to cast a spell with +5 CL and +10 skill points in spellcraft, Arcana and Religion.
You do get access to several skills, but you need more skill points.

So I am having some issues with trying to justify taking this PRC. Other 10 level or even 5 level prc have less or same requirements but more benefits thrown in.

Thaumaturge, 2 feats and 14 skill points get you amazing abilities that we all know about. Especially if we were doing a summoner, we already having the 2 required feats.

Blood magus, one the best prcs out there, one feat and 5 concentration.

Hierophant, the big dog divine class with super amazing abilities to choose from and a medium bab...15 skill points and 1 metamagic feat.

It seems like Mystic theurge has a lot of requirements and just not enough meat right now.

A level 20 with a 5/5/10 split, one class has level 8 spells to choose from. The other class has only level 3 spells to choose from. Granted it's CL 10, but not a lot of utility there.

In the 3.5 rules set it only takes 12 skill points and cast level 2 spells with arcane and divine. And you get full spellcasting progression with both classes .

That is definitely a pretty big boon for almost no commitment., buts in on par with most of our prcs.

So suggestions? Halve the skill point requirement. Maybe only require 2 feats. And give 5 full progression levels for the secondary caster class and full 10 on the other.

It's not like that is overpowered here since there is no way to get your CL high enough where a simple dispel magic gets rid of the buffs, or the damage and dc of the spell will be too low to be effective, but it would give some more tools in the casters belt.

Anyone have more suggestions for the class?

Again thanks for the time and testing for the new PRC on top of everything else you have with no real compensation and your free time used.

[Young Werther]

Divine power could work how it works in PnP.

[JustAnotherGuy]

give 5 full progression levels for the secondary caster class and full 10 on the other.

I'm not invested enough to comment on the rest, but I believe this is how it already works. Full progression in one class, and half progression in the other.

[Almarea90]

If full progression means spell progression as well, I believe that was considered but the game engine doesn't allow it.

[Blame The Rogue]

i dont believe that's entirely accurate. there used to be a bug that did just that. if you wanted to implement full spell progression, you just need to duplicate that bug as an actual feature

[Hawke]

give 5 full progression levels for the secondary caster class and full 10 on the other.

I'm not invested enough to comment on the rest, but I believe this is how it already works. Full progression in one class, and half progression in the other.

No, unfortunately. It gives up to 5 CL only in the other class. No spellcssting progression.

[Almarea90]

Like I said, I don't know if the double progression is possible, but with regards to the steep requirements, those can either be changed or, even better a cleric kit could be added that gives the cleric more skill points although it loses the heavy armor proficiency. In PnP there is something like that.

[zhazz]

One way to make use of the class is so grab powerful low-level buffs from another casting class.

E.g. you could go 11 Wizard / 9 Cleric / 10 Mystic Theurge.

Grab Practiced Spellcaster for both classes. With the +5 CL bonus from MT that's a +9 CL to both.
That puts Wizard at CL 30 (immune to Greater Dispel), and Cleric at CL 18.

For a Gish that's quite powerful, as you're getting the following from Cleric:

• Divine Favor (+3 AB, +3 Magic Damage)
• Shield of faith (+5 Deflection AC)
• Align Weapon (+2 Magic Damage)
• Prayer (+1 AB, +1 Damage, +1 All Saves)
• Recitation (+3 AC, +3 AB, +3 All Saves)
• Spell Resistance (30 Spell Resistance)
• Death Ward

Are those buffs easily dispellable at CL 18? Definitely. But they're higher CL than a wand, and thus lasts longer, plus don't take up inventory space or weight.
There are several other good buffs, and it goes both ways too (CL 18 Haste on a Cleric e.g). Those were just from a quick glance.

Not everyone wants to play a Gish, however, but this definitely seems a strong contender for that sort of build.

[EasternCheesE]

i dont believe that's entirely accurate. there used to be a bug that did just that. if you wanted to implement full spell progression, you just need to duplicate that bug as an actual feature

Could you please advise us on such bug?
For what i know, if PC takes 2 spellcasting progression feats within single class, only one of them really matters, so we literally can't make full dual progression. It could be cool to make it so and we wanted to, but we don't have mechanical way to make it so. If you know on how to do it reliable and without issues, please share.

[DaloLorn]

One way to make use of the class is so grab powerful low-level buffs from another casting class.

E.g. you could go 11 Wizard / 9 Cleric / 10 Mystic Theurge.

Grab Practiced Spellcaster for both classes. With the +5 CL bonus from MT that's a +9 CL to both.
That puts Wizard at CL 30 (immune to Greater Dispel), and Cleric at CL 18.

For a Gish that's quite powerful, as you're getting the following from Cleric:

• Divine Favor (+3 AB, +3 Magic Damage)
• Shield of faith (+5 Deflection AC)
• Align Weapon (+2 Magic Damage)
• Prayer (+1 AB, +1 Damage, +1 All Saves)
• Recitation (+3 AC, +3 AB, +3 All Saves)
• Spell Resistance (30 Spell Resistance)
• Death Ward

Are those buffs easily dispellable at CL 18? Definitely. But they're higher CL than a wand, and thus lasts longer, plus don't take up inventory space or weight.
There are several other good buffs, and it goes both ways too (CL 18 Haste on a Cleric e.g). Those were just from a quick glance.

Not everyone wants to play a Gish, however, but this definitely seems a strong contender for that sort of build.

You don't need Death Ward when you have Shadow Shield. But yeah, it's not a bad one.

I'm partial to a 5 Wizard / 5 Cleric / 10 Scholar / 10 Divine Theurge, myself. Level 8 slots, advanced metamagics, and CL24 in both classes.

i dont believe that's entirely accurate. there used to be a bug that did just that. if you wanted to implement full spell progression, you just need to duplicate that bug as an actual feature

Could you please advise us on such bug?
For what i know, if PC takes 2 spellcasting progression feats within single class, only one of them really matters, so we literally can't make full dual progression. It could be cool to make it so and we wanted to, but we don't have mechanical way to make it so. If you know on how to do it reliable and without issues, please share.

IIRC, the first progression feat is the only one that lets you learn new spells on levelup, which could be tricky if both your classes were spontaneous casters... but if you later take a level that only progresses the second class, you're allowed to retroactively learn all the spells you're allowed to know.

It's clunky, but doable. I think there were other reasons MT only progresses one class' casting.

[zhazz]

One way to make use of the class is so grab powerful low-level buffs from another casting class.

E.g. you could go 11 Wizard / 9 Cleric / 10 Mystic Theurge.

Grab Practiced Spellcaster for both classes. With the +5 CL bonus from MT that's a +9 CL to both.
That puts Wizard at CL 30 (immune to Greater Dispel), and Cleric at CL 18.

For a Gish that's quite powerful, as you're getting the following from Cleric:

• Divine Favor (+3 AB, +3 Magic Damage)
• Shield of faith (+5 Deflection AC)
• Align Weapon (+2 Magic Damage)
• Prayer (+1 AB, +1 Damage, +1 All Saves)
• Recitation (+3 AC, +3 AB, +3 All Saves)
• Spell Resistance (30 Spell Resistance)
• Death Ward

Are those buffs easily dispellable at CL 18? Definitely. But they're higher CL than a wand, and thus lasts longer, plus don't take up inventory space or weight.
There are several other good buffs, and it goes both ways too (CL 18 Haste on a Cleric e.g). Those were just from a quick glance.

Not everyone wants to play a Gish, however, but this definitely seems a strong contender for that sort of build.

You don't need Death Ward when you have Shadow Shield. But yeah, it's not a bad one.

I'm partial to a 5 Wizard / 5 Cleric / 10 Scholar / 10 Divine Theurge, myself. Level 8 slots, advanced metamagics, and CL24 in both classes.

CL 24 should be fine for most blasters, since they rarely care about the DC anyway.

As for the Gish version, I think the more appropriate version will be 5 Wizard / 9 Cleric / 10 Mystic Theurge / 6 Eldritch Knight. While it does drop the Arcane CL to 29, it also boosts BAB from 16 to 19.

Definitely see several options for the PrC.

[Almarea90]

One way to make use of the class is so grab powerful low-level buffs from another casting class.

E.g. you could go 11 Wizard / 9 Cleric / 10 Mystic Theurge.

Grab Practiced Spellcaster for both classes. With the +5 CL bonus from MT that's a +9 CL to both.
That puts Wizard at CL 30 (immune to Greater Dispel), and Cleric at CL 18.

For a Gish that's quite powerful, as you're getting the following from Cleric:

• Divine Favor (+3 AB, +3 Magic Damage)
• Shield of faith (+5 Deflection AC)
• Align Weapon (+2 Magic Damage)
• Prayer (+1 AB, +1 Damage, +1 All Saves)
• Recitation (+3 AC, +3 AB, +3 All Saves)
• Spell Resistance (30 Spell Resistance)
• Death Ward

Are those buffs easily dispellable at CL 18? Definitely. But they're higher CL than a wand, and thus lasts longer, plus don't take up inventory space or weight.
There are several other good buffs, and it goes both ways too (CL 18 Haste on a Cleric e.g). Those were just from a quick glance.

Not everyone wants to play a Gish, however, but this definitely seems a strong contender for that sort of build.

You don't need Death Ward when you have Shadow Shield. But yeah, it's not a bad one.

Death Ward lasts longer and you can cast it on others, which for a buffer spellcaster is great.

I'm partial to a 5 Wizard / 5 Cleric / 10 Scholar / 10 Divine Theurge, myself. Level 8 slots, advanced metamagics, and CL24 in both classes.

I am 6 Wizard/5 Scholar/9 Cleric/10 Theurge as I didn't want to lose the CL 30 for Wizard, but I am effectively suffering due to the lack of improved maximized spells. I might consider RCRing to that in the future.

i dont believe that's entirely accurate. there used to be a bug that did just that. if you wanted to implement full spell progression, you just need to duplicate that bug as an actual feature

Could you please advise us on such bug?
For what i know, if PC takes 2 spellcasting progression feats within single class, only one of them really matters, so we literally can't make full dual progression. It could be cool to make it so and we wanted to, but we don't have mechanical way to make it so. If you know on how to do it reliable and without issues, please share.

IIRC, the first progression feat is the only one that lets you learn new spells on levelup, which could be tricky if both your classes were spontaneous casters... but if you later take a level that only progresses the second class, you're allowed to retroactively learn all the spells you're allowed to know.

It's clunky, but doable. I think there were other reasons MT only progresses one class' casting.

When I spoke to BloodRiot, the reason why they didn't give the double progression is because it was buggy af, although they tried. That said, if a way was found to have the double progression I would be partying wild for a week.

[DaloLorn]

Oh, I thought it was just balance concerns.

Well, I think that the bug is predictable enough that you could just teach the players how to work around it. It's literally just "take a progression level in your second caster class after your last Mystic Theurge level".