MotLD can have flurry on

[mrm3ntalist]

I do not know if i missed an update or something, but as far as i can remember MotLD were supposed to have flurry of fists disabled. Currently they can have it activated. Is this indented or not?

[Tanlaus]

I do not know if i missed an update or something, but as far as i can remember MotLD were supposed to have flurry of fists disabled. Currently they can have it activated. Is this indented or not?

I thought one of the changes was they got flurry but not greater flurry. But it’s been a minute since all that changed so you may well be right. Thanks for the heads up. I’ll poke around.

[EasternCheesE]

I do not know if i missed an update or something, but as far as i can remember MotLD were supposed to have flurry of fists disabled. Currently they can have it activated. Is this indented or not?

I thought one of the changes was they got flurry but not greater flurry. But it’s been a minute since all that changed so you may well be right. Thanks for the heads up. I’ll poke around.

Indeed, only greater flurry is disabled, not regular one.

[mrm3ntalist]

I do not know if i missed an update or something, but as far as i can remember MotLD were supposed to have flurry of fists disabled. Currently they can have it activated. Is this indented or not?

I thought one of the changes was they got flurry but not greater flurry. But it’s been a minute since all that changed so you may well be right. Thanks for the heads up. I’ll poke around.

Indeed, only greater flurry is disabled, not regular one.

You guys really think that monks and phantoms need the extra help... ( Bonus AC )

[Tanlaus]

I thought one of the changes was they got flurry but not greater flurry. But it’s been a minute since all that changed so you may well be right. Thanks for the heads up. I’ll poke around.

Indeed, only greater flurry is disabled, not regular one.

You guys really think that monks and phantoms need the extra help... ( Bonus AC )

MoLTDs took a huge hit. Mostly because they were bugged from the get go. Most monk of layers that had the kit rcrd out after the change. I personally think the extra AC is a strong bonus, but seems not to have much appeal anyway. They do give up a lot for the bonus. One of the main issues is that monks (and phantoms) can down OI elixers and use IMA wands to get pretty extreme ACs without the bump. So it means less.

I’m not even sure there are any active MoLTDs left anymore.

Phantoms are another can of worms entirely. After running a few test builds with QC toons I rcrd an old 30 and gave it a bunch of player gear because I think QC gear- especially without skill bonuses- loses quite a bit on the margins.

As a side note I used to just nuke player gear to QC toons to test but after the third time losing a bunch of epic gear because I fight to clear someone before wiping them I changed my policy in that regard.

Anyway, throw on enough bluff and stealth gear and phantoms are pretty reliable with create diversion… less skill points, no umd, lose a bonus feat and sneak dice to get epic dodge with 5 SD, or phantom abilities and bonuses and bonus feats for 8 or 9 assassin, no blinding strike either way, I still think rogue is a better base class.

They still have less skill points and no umd. The AC bump isn’t huge… what is huge- again- are OI elixers. Everything else is changes in the margin and that just blows the margin completely.

On a side bit I once built a 16 phantom/4 assassin/10 SD. Full UMD by spacing it out right (this was before the skill changes) true sight, epic dodge and a combination or SD and phantom abilities. Only 10 Sneak dice but that dude was hard to kill.

[EasternCheesE]

I thought one of the changes was they got flurry but not greater flurry. But it’s been a minute since all that changed so you may well be right. Thanks for the heads up. I’ll poke around.

Indeed, only greater flurry is disabled, not regular one.

You guys really think that monks and phantoms need the extra help... ( Bonus AC )

Hm? There was no change to Motld since Matelener fixed its bug and removed greater flurry and adamantine fists. So, since then, regular flurry of blows was always available to MotLD and it's been over a year already.

[mrm3ntalist]

Indeed, only greater flurry is disabled, not regular one.

You guys really think that monks and phantoms need the extra help... ( Bonus AC )

MoLTDs took a huge hit. Mostly because they were bugged from the get go. Most monk of layers that had the kit rcrd out after the change. I personally think the extra AC is a strong bonus, but seems not to have much appeal anyway. They do give up a lot for the bonus. One of the main issues is that monks (and phantoms) can down OI elixers and use IMA wands to get pretty extreme ACs without the bump. So it means less.

I’m not even sure there are any active MoLTDs left anymore.

Phantoms are another can of worms entirely. After running a few test builds with QC toons I rcrd an old 30 and gave it a bunch of player gear because I think QC gear- especially without skill bonuses- loses quite a bit on the margins.

As a side note I used to just nuke player gear to QC toons to test but after the third time losing a bunch of epic gear because I fight to clear someone before wiping them I changed my policy in that regard.

Anyway, throw on enough bluff and stealth gear and phantoms are pretty reliable with create diversion… less skill points, no umd, lose a bonus feat and sneak dice to get epic dodge with 5 SD, or phantom abilities and bonuses and bonus feats for 8 or 9 assassin, no blinding strike either way, I still think rogue is a better base class.

They still have less skill points and no umd. The AC bump isn’t huge… what is huge- again- are OI elixers. Everything else is changes in the margin and that just blows the margin completely.

On a side bit I once built a 16 phantom/4 assassin/10 SD. Full UMD by spacing it out right (this was before the skill changes) true sight, epic dodge and a combination or SD and phantom abilities. Only 10 Sneak dice but that dude was hard to kill.

Phantoms can now get about 57AC with no buffs. With buffs and umd the ac goes close to 70 + Epic dodge. AC was not an issue with phantoms unless you are trying to develop a build to tank the white dragon.

Hm? There was no change to Motld since Matelener fixed its bug and removed greater flurry and adamantine fists. So, since then, regular flurry of blows was always available to MotLD and it's been over a year already.

I do not know what matelener changed. MotLD were supposed to lose the flurry and ki steps.

[EasternCheesE]

You guys really think that monks and phantoms need the extra help... ( Bonus AC )

MoLTDs took a huge hit. Mostly because they were bugged from the get go. Most monk of layers that had the kit rcrd out after the change. I personally think the extra AC is a strong bonus, but seems not to have much appeal anyway. They do give up a lot for the bonus. One of the main issues is that monks (and phantoms) can down OI elixers and use IMA wands to get pretty extreme ACs without the bump. So it means less.

I’m not even sure there are any active MoLTDs left anymore.

Phantoms are another can of worms entirely. After running a few test builds with QC toons I rcrd an old 30 and gave it a bunch of player gear because I think QC gear- especially without skill bonuses- loses quite a bit on the margins.

As a side note I used to just nuke player gear to QC toons to test but after the third time losing a bunch of epic gear because I fight to clear someone before wiping them I changed my policy in that regard.

Anyway, throw on enough bluff and stealth gear and phantoms are pretty reliable with create diversion… less skill points, no umd, lose a bonus feat and sneak dice to get epic dodge with 5 SD, or phantom abilities and bonuses and bonus feats for 8 or 9 assassin, no blinding strike either way, I still think rogue is a better base class.

They still have less skill points and no umd. The AC bump isn’t huge… what is huge- again- are OI elixers. Everything else is changes in the margin and that just blows the margin completely.

On a side bit I once built a 16 phantom/4 assassin/10 SD. Full UMD by spacing it out right (this was before the skill changes) true sight, epic dodge and a combination or SD and phantom abilities. Only 10 Sneak dice but that dude was hard to kill.

Phantoms can now get about 57AC with no buffs. With buffs and umd the ac goes close to 70 + Epic dodge. AC was not an issue with phantoms unless you are trying to develop a build to tank the white dragon.

Hm? There was no change to Motld since Matelener fixed its bug and removed greater flurry and adamantine fists. So, since then, regular flurry of blows was always available to MotLD and it's been over a year already.

I do not know what matelener changed. MotLD were supposed to lose the flurry and ki steps.

1) How do you make an unbuffed phantom having 56 AC?
I kinda can imagine something like 30 phantom with 26+4 dex and, say 19+3 wisdom:
10 base
10 dex
6 wisdom
6 phantom
16 from gear
1 armor skin
1 dodge
that's 50 AC with dumping many stats and doing sacrifices.

2) Who told you that they were supposed to love ki-step and flurry? I was in team when it was done and it was never discussed. They do lose greater flurry, adamantine fist and something else i forgot what.

[mrm3ntalist]

that's 50 AC with dumping many stats and doing sacrifices.

What do you mean with dumping many stats and doing sacrifices? Is for example CE considered one of those? Or using the various combat styles, such as Northlander Hewing, Sembian Fencing or Athkatlan Triparte ? Those are situational feats that can be used depending the situation

With 50AC a character can deal with all mobs on the server. The higher stats are needed for bosses. For example a phantom with the AC you described above can clear all mobs in the Balor area. Then for the balor for example, either use CE or a combat style ( or both ) for more AC even if that means sacrificing the last 3 attacks, which will never hit anyway since the AC is too high. 55AC (or 59 with various combat styles) with Epic dodge means you will barely get hit even on natural 20s ( epic dodge - once per round ).

Now the same "weak" phantom, can chug a potion of shield, a wand of IMA and an elixir of Owls insight ( i dont know if the elixirs work the same ) and can go to the White dragon with 73AC + Epic dodge. I have a feeling the dodge AC cap might be hit but i think the phantom can reliably reach 70+ AC.

FYI not all is grim. You guys did an excellent job with helping with the RCRs - i didnt expect to manage to rcr all 40 characters of mine, but because of the tools you guys provided I was able and was relatively fast. I did not have time only for a handful of characters. Other than that, the combat styles make it especially fun to play a character, especially being able to combine more styles together. I am planning for a character - basically fighter 20+ ) that will have all different combat styles and switch them depending on what the character is fighting.

But ye, the phantom really did not need more AC. I am building a phantom/sd which is currently level 25 and already is a beast. You didnt fix the phantom class, you made it OP and once players realize that and start rolling them, the eventual nerf will happen to undo what you just did.

And now that I realized what you did with MotLD, Every build with monk11, should have 10 levels of MotLD.

[Tanlaus]

Phantom gets 3 more AC than it did. They are slightly stronger than they were before, but it’s not game changing. I’m personally not a fan of maxing CE on medium BAB builds because it’s a huge DPS hit but each to his or her own.

Getting huge AC with OI and tortoise shell elixirs + ima wand (and FoM or the tortoise shell) has always been an issue. The phantom AC changes pale in comparison.

The move was to bring it back in line with its pnp stats.

[Winterborne]

3 more AC does not make phantom OP. Phantoms can't get epic dodge and UMD, too, it's worth noting. Phantoms used to be able to wear shields and keep their AC but they can't do this anymore. Owl's Elixirs definitely make phantoms a bit higher end than they ought to be but Owl's is busted and needs to go for all classes, full stop. Based on the assumption of 59 AC with CE + FD, then adding 4 for shield, 2 for IMA (assuming +4 cloth), 5 for tort, and 6 for Owl's, that puts you at yes, a very high theoretical AC level, but that's at the cost of skillpoints, and at losing 9 AB, which if you're going far into phantom you're basically going to stand there and not hit anything because your AB is too low.

3 AC is all phantom gained here, and it's a net loss compared to them previously being able to maintain their AC with a shield in hand.

[EasternCheesE]

Hidden: show

that's 50 AC with dumping many stats and doing sacrifices.

What do you mean with dumping many stats and doing sacrifices? Is for example CE considered one of those? Or using the various combat styles, such as Northlander Hewing, Sembian Fencing or Athkatlan Triparte ? Those are situational feats that can be used depending the situation

With 50AC a character can deal with all mobs on the server. The higher stats are needed for bosses. For example a phantom with the AC you described above can clear all mobs in the Balor area. Then for the balor for example, either use CE or a combat style ( or both ) for more AC even if that means sacrificing the last 3 attacks, which will never hit anyway since the AC is too high. 55AC (or 59 with various combat styles) with Epic dodge means you will barely get hit even on natural 20s ( epic dodge - once per round ).

Now the same "weak" phantom, can chug a potion of shield, a wand of IMA and an elixir of Owls insight ( i dont know if the elixirs work the same ) and can go to the White dragon with 73AC + Epic dodge. I have a feeling the dodge AC cap might be hit but i think the phantom can reliably reach 70+ AC.

FYI not all is grim. You guys did an excellent job with helping with the RCRs - i didnt expect to manage to rcr all 40 characters of mine, but because of the tools you guys provided I was able and was relatively fast. I did not have time only for a handful of characters. Other than that, the combat styles make it especially fun to play a character, especially being able to combine more styles together. I am planning for a character - basically fighter 20+ ) that will have all different combat styles and switch them depending on what the character is fighting.

But ye, the phantom really did not need more AC. I am building a phantom/sd which is currently level 25 and already is a beast. You didnt fix the phantom class, you made it OP and once players realize that and start rolling them, the eventual nerf will happen to undo what you just did.

And now that I realized what you did with MotLD, Every build with monk11, should have 10 levels of MotLD.

I mean that 26 dex and 19 wisdom is only possible if someone starts with 18 dex and 19 wisdom, say, on aasimar. Or, some drow/tiefling with 19 dex and 18 wisdom which gives very tight space for other stats. And if one picks epic dex/wisdom, it also costs feat slots which most ptwf builds are already starved of. And phantom AC only kicks in when done pure, so each 5 levels of Phantom not taken are -1 AC.

[mrm3ntalist]

3 AC is all phantom gained here, and it's a net loss compared to them previously being able to maintain their AC with a shield in hand.

You want to tell me that a class that could already get 55+AC with no buffs, 65+with buffs, had an AC issue and needed 3 more AC? And now that everyone can see that there was no such issue you come here and say "It is only +3 AC"?

Sounds legit

[Winterborne]

I didn't say they had an AC issue, I'm saying the AC is no different than it was previously as a result of them losing the shield (which IMO is a good change). People are up in arms about them being newly high AC, and that's not the case. They've always been able to get this same level of AC.