Underdark Changes... One Character's Impact

[MrSmith]

I was looking forward to the most recent Server Update given my investment in a Weapon Finesse, Light Flail wielding Halfling. Unfortunately, for me... Weapon Finesse still does not applying to light flails.

Conversely, I took my Underdark character out for a walk and realized that I am now stuck in an endless loop of Survival Roles to properly secure the use of a boat back to Mist Lake from the Forgotten City. I am really trying here because I love this server. What is the plan to reconcile a preexisting PvE Build vs. Server Changes that fundamentally changes a character's interactions with his/her environment? I did not invest hundreds of hours to achieve a 30 level character only to suddenly realize he is inept. Does this change come with another 100% RCR?

Perhaps it's just me, but the loot drops have drastically changed in the Forgotten City... but then again, this is my first post update run.

Cheers!

[Rhifox]

I was looking forward to the most recent Server Update given my investment in a Weapon Finesse, Light Flail wielding Halfling. Unfortunately, for me... Weapon Finesse still does not applying to light flails.

Conversely, I took my Underdark character out for a walk and realized that I am now stuck in an endless loop of Survival Roles to properly secure the use of a boat back to Mist Lake from the Forgotten City.

Forgotten City no longer has a boat to Mist Lake. The Forgotten City boat goes to Rockrun. It says that on the pop up message (Boat to the Upperdark). To return to Mist Lake from Forgotten City, you need to go back the way you came in.


As for the light flails, I'll let Dae know they're still not working.

[MrSmith]

I was looking forward to the most recent Server Update given my investment in a Weapon Finesse, Light Flail wielding Halfling. Unfortunately, for me... Weapon Finesse still does not applying to light flails.

Conversely, I took my Underdark character out for a walk and realized that I am now stuck in an endless loop of Survival Roles to properly secure the use of a boat back to Mist Lake from the Forgotten City.

Forgotten City no longer has a boat to Mist Lake. The Forgotten City boat goes to Rockrun. It says that on the pop up message (Boat to the Upperdark). To return to Mist Lake from Forgotten City, you need to go back the way you came in.


As for the light flails, I'll let Dae know they're still not working.

Thank you, Rhifox... The boat at Mist Lake requires a Survival Roll to get to Rockrun. If you fail the roll, you're displaced to another, albeit it new, map. This map has an Upperdark option that takes to you Rockrun.

[Rhifox]

Mist Lake isn't supposed to still have a boat to Rockrun, so I'll double check that, thank you.

[Ghost]

Light flail is a small weapon and therefore shouldn't be finesseable to small characters. It's like a normal flail to a medium character.

[MrSmith]

The main point of this post was to lament the fact my 30th level character is unable to make a NEW PvE related survival role... Newly required and previously unnecessary... to travel from the Underdark to the Upperdark. I am currently caught in a do-loop of survival rolls that is bouncing me back and forth between Underkdark: Flooded Cavern and the Upperdark: Flooded Lake. ROCKRUN is no where to be seen.

The DC is 20... I have an innate score of 2. I need to roll an 18 or higher to complete the journey. Statistically, I have a 10 percent chance of making this trip.

Is this by design? Because I now fear the UD Character I created using the 100% RCR is banned to the Underdark with a limited chance of moving anywhere else.

If this is by design, then I would like the staff to empathize with the player side and reassess their intent behind this change.

Cheers!

[Rhifox]

The main point of this post was to lament the fact my 30th level character is unable to make a NEW PvE related survival role... Newly required and previously unnecessary... to travel from the Underdark to the Upperdark. I am currently caught in a do-loop of survival rolls that is bouncing me back and forth between Underkdark: Flooded Cavern and the Upperdark: Flooded Lake. ROCKRUN is no where to be seen.

You get to the Upperdark by successfully making the Survival skill check in order to navigate there. Failure on the Survival check causes the character to get lost. Getting lost multiple times prevents accessing the surface/upperdark on that reset. The text tells you if you've become irreparably lost. In that case, you want to use the transitions/boats that take you back to the Underdark. Returning back to the Underdark only has a DC of 5, so it is easy to return home if you get lost (or made it to the surface and want to return home afterwards).

The DC is 20... I have an innate score of 2. I need to roll an 18 or higher to complete the journey. Statistically, I have a 10 percent chance of making this trip.

Is this by design? Because I now fear the UD Character I created using the 100% RCR is banned to the Underdark with a limited chance of moving anywhere else.

If this is by design, then I would like the staff to empathize with the player side and reassess their intent behind this change.

Cheers!

Yes, this is by design. Travel between the surface and the Underdark now involves either one of these new routes (requiring either your own Survival checks or by getting assistance from a character with high Survival. Whoever is party leader is the one that makes the roll for the party.), or going through the Netherese Maze route (this one does not involve any skill checks, so for a low skill character, this route always remains open). Crossing between the surface and the Underdark is now lore accurate and appropriately difficult. There will eventually be methods for lowering the DC (such as finding a map, which lowers the DC by 6). There is also a familiarity system where the more one travels to the other side, the easier it becomes (but this takes a long time to develop).

It is still easier for drow to go up than it is for surfacers to go down, as darkvision is necessary for base DC20, which most surface characters don't have.

It should be noted that Upperdark is much less useful for UD characters than pre-patch. Kro's Labyrinth/Descent and Formian Ruins have been moved to the Underdark (Kro is accessed through the normal Mist Lake->Oghrann->Kro boat route, Formian Ruins is accessed from Kro). Upperdark is now primarily a transitional area between surface and UD. Its highest-level dungeon is Blackrock (CR14), and even that one I'm willing to move to the UD side if it is considered an essential dungeon. Most everything else in the Upperdark is low level.

This change was made as part of the decision to rework Surface-UD rules. There are no more restrictions on what side of the map you're allowed to be on, or where you're allowed to earn gold or exp, but travel has become harder and more lore accurate in turn. These new routes were meant to be added shortly after the ToT patch, but got delayed.

[MrSmith]

Rhifox,

Thank you... and I sincerely appreciate your extensive explanation. But, I opine your comments do not address how these fundamental changes impact immutable characters incapable for changing to adjust to their environment. Change is inevitable and I am not arguing the Staff's decisions to make them. I simply ask, now that you have made these changes, what is the remedy for those characters incapable for evolving to adjust to their environments? If I were anything other than 30th level, I would adjust over time... but I am not.

Candidly, we are not talking about a minor impact to my or any other character. The travel between the Underdark and the Upperdark is now a ~two hour affair or longer, with multiple set backs causing the repeated travel over the same terrain, again and again.

Cheers!

[Rhifox]

Rhifox,

Thank you... and I sincerely appreciate your extensive explanation. But, I opine your comments do not address how these fundamental changes impact immutable characters incapable for changing to adjust to their environment. Change is inevitable and I am not arguing the Staff's decisions to make them. I simply ask, now that you have made these changes, what is the remedy for those characters incapable for evolving to adjust to their environments? If I were anything other than 30th level, I would adjust over time... but I am not.

If you really want to travel above, there are a few ways:

Gear that provides a bonus to Survival scores. Owl's Wisdom potions or scrolls (or Owl's Insight elixirs or scrolls). Heroism potions/Greater Heroism scrolls. Underdark Maps once they get added. Using just a single +4 Survival gear, an Owl's Wisdom potion, a Heroism potion, and an Underdark Map would cut 14 off of the DC. Without the map it's just -8 from the DC, but that still gives you a 50/50 chance with your current ranks. Higher if you invest in OI elixirs or GHero potions, or more than one survival gear.

Alternatively, you can group with a character that has high Survival, and they can guide you through.

Candidly, we are not talking about a minor impact to my or any other character. The travel between the Underdark and the Upperdark is now a ~two hour affair or longer, with multiple set backs causing the repeated travel over the same terrain, again and again.

You should not be repeating it over and over again, seeing as you only really get two attempts before it no longer works at all. Once you get the message that you are irreparably lost, your only choice at that point is to return to your home region, using the transition/boat that says 'to the Underdark'.

The other alternative, again, the one that doesn't involve any skill rolls, is to go through the Netherese mze.

[MrSmith]

You should not be repeating it over and over again, seeing as you only really get two attempts before it no longer works at all. Once you get the message that you are irreparably lost, your only choice at that point is to return to your home region, using the transition/boat that says 'to the Underdark'.

The other alternative, again, the one that doesn't involve any skill rolls, is to go through the Netherese mze.

The survival rolls aids are consistent with my experience and yet appreciated, thank you.

This quote above has not been my experience, albeit my experience is limited. I logged from the game after being bounced from the Deep Underdark Lake to the Underdark: Maze... after working through the previous maps listed above. In total, I have been bounced between five difference map sheets because I am unable to make a survival roll with a DC of 20.

I think I will take a break from the game for a while. I appreciate all of your work and hope to return in the future.

Before I go... a rhetorical question. How many difference map sheets COULD a character experience if they are playing solo and incapable for a successful Survival roll? I submit the answer to this is a least five... rhetorical question #2. Is that reasonable?

Peace out!

[Rhifox]

You should not be repeating it over and over again, seeing as you only really get two attempts before it no longer works at all. Once you get the message that you are irreparably lost, your only choice at that point is to return to your home region, using the transition/boat that says 'to the Underdark'.

The other alternative, again, the one that doesn't involve any skill rolls, is to go through the Netherese mze.

The survival rolls aids are consistent with my experience and yet appreciated, thank you.

This quote above has not been my experience, albeit my experience is limited. I logged from the game after being bounced from the Deep Underdark Lake to the Underdark: Maze... after working through the previous maps listed above. In total, I have been bounced between five difference map sheets because I am unable to make a survival roll with a DC of 20.

I think I will take a break from the game for a while. I appreciate all of your work and hope to return in the future.

Before I go... a rhetorical question. How many difference map sheets COULD a character experience if they are playing solo and incapable for a successful Survival roll? I submit the answer to this is a least five... rhetorical question #2. Is that reasonable?

Peace out!

There are four total. Two land, two water. When you initially fail a check, you are sent to the first map (flooded caverns for a boat route, deep underground for a land route). From this map, you can make another attempt to reach your original destination, or else turn back to go home. If you fail a second time on this map, you are sent to the second map (forgotten lake for a boat route, maze for a land route). Once you reach the second map, you are irreparably lost. You are unable to make another attempt to your original destination, and must instead take the route back home. Any attempts at reaching your original intended destination will only cycle between the lost maps.

There are a few junctions on the lost and completely lost maps. Deep underground has a boat that can take you to Rockrun or Forgotten City, but if you fail will take you to flooded caverns instead (thus putting you on the boat route). Forgotten Lake and Maze can also be crossed between each other, putting you on either the boat or land routes respectively.

When lost (either first lost map or a completely lost map), you can always take the route back to your starting home (Underdark for UD characters, Upperdark for surface characters) at a DC of 5. It is of course still possible to fail this roll and continue to be lost, but in general you have a minimum of 75% chance to successfully return home no matter what map you're on as long as you use a transition that goes back to your home region.

There's also, of course, the option of simply waiting until a reset and spawning back in a home city.

For the sake of removing confusion, we could simply have the irreparably lost transition attempt fail entirely rather than continuing to cycle, so once you are irreparably lost it won't even let you try to use the transition to the other side. This would avoid players misreading the labels/system messages and getting themselves endlessly stuck by continuing to try to get to a destination that can no longer be reached. This removes some of the immersive feeling of being lost (traveling in circles), but is easier on QoL.

I'll once again say, though, that there is very little reason to cross to the other side unless you actually have roleplay with the other side or else want to do the other side's dungeons (eg UD dungeons as a surface char, or surface dungeons as a UD character). The Upperdark itself is no longer treated as a distinct area, rather it is a transition area between surface and UD and offers little content for characters. The main dungeons of the Upperdark (Kro and Formian Hive) were both moved into the UD so that UD players could continue to access them. So I'm unsure why not being able to travel to the other side is a gamebreaking issue, when you said your main concerns were as a pve player. Again, if the issue is Blackrock, that can be moved to the UD side as well, as the goal is that the UD side is fully self-sufficient in terms of its access to underground content.

And again, the Netherese Maze is always an option for traveling if one wants to avoid skill checks. And the skill checks themselves can be mitigated with the proper preparations taken, even for a low Survival character.

[Steve]

Sorry to ruin it for you MrSmith!!

viewtopic.php?f=482&t=77951

I mostly just hoped to see the Upperdark become a more used/useful set of areas for Surface/Underdark interaction, but….

[MrSmith]

Sorry to ruin it for you MrSmith!!

viewtopic.php?f=482&t=77951

I mostly just hoped to see the Upperdark become a more used/useful set of areas for Surface/Underdark interaction, but….

Thank you, Steve for the reveal. I read this when you posted it... But, it is only now that I have a full appreciation of topic.

Cheers!

[Rhifox]

My apologies. I screwed up the code a bit and there was a bug resulting in UD characters getting the surface flag instead of the UD flag. This could explain why you got stuck. That will be fixed for the next patch. Returning back to UD as a UD character should now work properly.

Sorry for the problems.

[mrm3ntalist]

Are there hidden rolls in pnp?