Bladesinger Improvements

[Flights of Fantasy]

This is a list of improvements I think the PrC could use to make it more versatile. The majority of them focus specifically on the Song of Celerity.

1. Improved Song of Celerity - I like this move a lot because Bladesingers are supposed to be able to fight with one hand while casting their spells with their free hand. It's why the style requires they keep their hand free and can't hold a shield or torch. The problem is it's only a starting move. After your first melee strike hits and the spell goes off, there's no reason to add another spell to your sword when you can just cast them directly on your target. So I came up with a few ideas to make it more than an opening move. Song of Celerity should act like a Warlock's hideous blow and only allow one spell per round in nearly all these suggestions.

>> A. Allow more than one attack spell on the blade at a time. You can actually do this already. If you cast multiple spells on your longsword (or rapier) and then examine it, you'll find multiple on hit spell effects are added for each cast; however, only the first one you cast will go off and the rest just vanish and are wasted. Change it so only first spell goes off and then it cycles to the next spell each round afterward during a successful strike. This continues until all the stored spells have been used.

>> B. Make it into a submenu with two options: Setup and Toggle. Toggle allows the player to select a particular spell the Bladesinger has memorized. Toggle activates Celerity as a combat mode like Combat Expertise. While Celerity is active, the spell set in Setup will be cast once per round after a successful melee strike. This continues until all castings have been exhausted or the player turns off Celerity. This will allow for greater control by letting the player choose when they use their spells during melee strikes. As an example, if the player is fighting a powerful monster with several weaker minions, they can turn off Celerity when attacking the minions then turn it back on when targeting the stronger foe. (Or visa versa if they have AoE's set so they can kill weaker foes quickly.)

>> C. This is an extension of B with a bit of A mixed in. Allow the Bladsinger to pick multiple spells during Setup. The spells fire off in the order they are selected as long as Celerity is active. This continues until all available spells are exhausted or Celerity is toggled off. This requires some planning and knowledge of the enemy to be used most effectively.

>> D. Give Bladesingers Automatic Quicken Spell 1-5. I'd suggest one every even level. Bladesingers then have the option to invest in 6-9 during epic levels if they desire.

>> E. Celerity summons a special familiar that only Bladesingers can use. This familiar is invisible, can't be damaged, or deal damage with physical attacks. It can only cast spells like other familiars and be possessed by the player. The difference is this familiar has access to all the spells memorized by the Bladesinger instead of just touch spells. Players can leave it in puppet mode and possess it during battle to cast spells, or configure it to attack with spells on its own using the AI. Ideally, the familiar should be scripted to automatically dismiss itself if the player tries to move it too far away from their character. It should also have no collision. It's meant to represent the free hand that Bladesinger's use to cast spells, not be used as an invisible barrier, spy, scout, or a range extension for their spells.

2. Improved Concentration - Bladesingers are supposed to get an ability that allows them to take an automatic 10 during their concentration rolls. This makes sense considering how much concentration such a style would require. I'd like to see that added as bonus feat they gain at a certain level. If it's too much trouble to create another feat, then give them skill focus concentration as a bonus feat at a particular level.

3. Full Spellcasting Progression - Bladesingers are supposed to be masters of the spell and sword. It doesn't make sense they have to give up some of that spell power. That being said, I do understand the concerns for balance, so I've come up with two compromises.

>> A. Give Bladesingers the option to select a special version of Practiced Spellcaster that can stack on top of the normal one if desired. This special version can only be selected at Bladesinger 4 when they get their bonus feat. This can be used to either save a general feat slot and/or mesh better with other classes.

>> B. Change spell progression to 7/10 instead of 6/10. That way at least they can multi-class with Eldritch Knight and still get Caster level 30 with Practiced Spellcaster.

4. Improved Bladesong Style - I think the limit set on the dodge bonus is a bit excessive. I don't see a problem with capping it at 5, but also making it half of the Bladesinger's Intelligence modifier is too much. It requires a Bladesinger to have 30 Intelligence to get the full bonus. 20 intelligence should be enough.

[Tantive]

The most appropriate adjustments I think, if there were to be one was to look to the original skills.

This one allows a bit more staying power using spells when attacked, especially in melee and with attacks of opportunity about. (Do we have improved combat casting btw to choose from? You don't incur attacks of opportunity for casting spells when threatened.)

---

Lesser Spellsong (Ex): When wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), a bladesinger of 2nd level or higher can take 10 when making a Concentration check to cast defensively.

---

And that Song of Celerity would instead of imbueing the blade, it goes back to.

---

Song of Celerity (Ex): Once per day, a bladesinger of 4th level or higher may quicken a single spell of up to 2nd level, as if she had used the Quicken Spell feat, but without any adjustment to the spell?s effective level or casting time. She may only use this ability when wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other). At 8th level and higher, she can quicken a single spell of up to 4th level.

---

So you have that free spell to use offensively and defensively on yourself.

Now I haven't rcred yet since before ToT, but I don't see Song of Fury in my character sheet.

---

Song of Fury (Ex): When a 10th-level bladesinger makes a full attack with a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), she can make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack and each other attack made in that round take a ?2 penalty. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the bladesinger might make before her next action.Advancement

---

Back in the day, this skill was made to go at max to +5 dodge bonus while the original skill allowed to whatever your intelligence was set to.

---

Bladesong Style (Ex): When wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), a bladesinger gains a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to his class level, up to a maximum of her Intelligence bonus. If the bladesinger wears medium or heavy armor, she loses all benefi ts of the bladesong style.

---

[DaloLorn]

As someone with a new Deathsinger of his own, I like some of these proposals... but as someone with a Deathsinger, I may be biased. (I do think I'd be better served by replacing my Deathsinger levels with Eldritch Knight, though, and am already considering RCRing accordingly. Between the Dodge cap and the loss of 3 spell levels, Duelist/EK seems like a much stronger synergy than Duelist/Deathsinger, plus easier to RP and outfit, to boot.)

That said, a few technical limitations I can think of offhand:

• 1E is right out. It's a pain in the neck to play, and it's a double pain in the neck to implement.
• 2 can't be done without Dae magic, because casting checks are hardcoded. Likewise, we do not have Improved Combat Casting.

One thing that probably should be decided, though: Is Bladesinger/Deathsinger trying to be a Bladesinger port, a Spellsword port, or a watered-down imitation of Pathfinder's Magus base class? Right now, it feels like it's screwing up on all three fronts.

EDIT:

• 1A and 1C may also be out due to technical limitations regarding how the spells are stored on the sword. Sorry.

[Steve]

One thing that probably should be decided, though: Is Bladesinger/Deathsinger trying to be a Bladesinger port, a Spellsword port, or a watered-down imitation of Pathfinder's Magus base class?

Ask Valefort!!!

[DaloLorn]

I can't, he's gone.

[Flights of Fantasy]

As someone with a new Deathsinger of his own, I like some of these proposals... but as someone with a Deathsinger, I may be biased. (I do think I'd be better served by replacing my Deathsinger levels with Eldritch Knight, though, and am already considering RCRing accordingly. Between the Dodge cap and the loss of 3 spell levels, Duelist/EK seems like a much stronger synergy than Duelist/Deathsinger, plus easier to RP and outfit, to boot.)

That said, a few technical limitations I can think of offhand:

• 1E is right out. It's a pain in the neck to play, and it's a double pain in the neck to implement.
• 2 can't be done without Dae magic, because casting checks are hardcoded. Likewise, we do not have Improved Combat Casting.

One thing that probably should be decided, though: Is Bladesinger/Deathsinger trying to be a Bladesinger port, a Spellsword port, or a watered-down imitation of Pathfinder's Magus base class? Right now, it feels like it's screwing up on all three fronts.

EDIT:

• 1A and 1C may also be out due to technical limitations regarding how the spells are stored on the sword. Sorry.

I definitely agree that Bladesinger (and Deathsinger by extension) does not sync well. It's far too feat hungry with too few benefits given for it. You are better off just using Eldritch Knight and mixing that up with another class. I really like the RP that goes with the class, but it's just not worth it.

It especially doesn't work well with Sorcerer, a class that encourages multi classing as much as possible since there's no benefit beyond 2 epic feats if you go pure sorcerer. And you loose that as soon as you take 6 or so levels in another class. (Hopefully bloodlines will fix this but that's way down the pipeline.) Granted, my character isn't Lawful Good, but I'd have to give up 7-8 caster levels even if I wanted to ignore lore and get the natural synergy between Sorcerer and Paladin.

The same goes for nearly all other classes. The only viable classes to mix a Sorcerer Bladesinger with are the few PrCs that give full arcane spell progression, because you may as well not be a Bladesinger once your caster level gets too low and your wards are easily dispelled and your attack spells are easily resisted.

It doesn't help that the dodge bonus from Bladesinging is insignificant due to the ridulous high INT requirements. If I were to get a 100% RCR today, I'd most likely not take Bladesinger again as the only way to be effective is to max out STR as much as possible and turn Aska into an Amazon like warrior, which she isn't.

[mrm3ntalist]

Ye, if bladesingers are given +10AC like the duelist, that would be perfect. Then you wont have to multiclass with duelist.

[artemitavik]

Didn't Duelist just have that +10 AC bonus nerfed?

[DaloLorn]

As someone with a new Deathsinger of his own, I like some of these proposals... but as someone with a Deathsinger, I may be biased. (I do think I'd be better served by replacing my Deathsinger levels with Eldritch Knight, though, and am already considering RCRing accordingly. Between the Dodge cap and the loss of 3 spell levels, Duelist/EK seems like a much stronger synergy than Duelist/Deathsinger, plus easier to RP and outfit, to boot.)

That said, a few technical limitations I can think of offhand:

• 1E is right out. It's a pain in the neck to play, and it's a double pain in the neck to implement.
• 2 can't be done without Dae magic, because casting checks are hardcoded. Likewise, we do not have Improved Combat Casting.

One thing that probably should be decided, though: Is Bladesinger/Deathsinger trying to be a Bladesinger port, a Spellsword port, or a watered-down imitation of Pathfinder's Magus base class? Right now, it feels like it's screwing up on all three fronts.

EDIT:

• 1A and 1C may also be out due to technical limitations regarding how the spells are stored on the sword. Sorry.

I definitely agree that Bladesinger (and Deathsinger by extension) does not sync well. It's far too feat hungry with too few benefits given for it. You are better off just using Eldritch Knight and mixing that up with another class. I really like the RP that goes with the class, but it's just not worth it.

It especially doesn't work well with Sorcerer, a class that encourages multi classing as much as possible since there's no benefit beyond 2 epic feats if you go pure sorcerer. And you loose that as soon as you take 6 or so levels in another class. (Hopefully bloodlines will fix this but that's way down the pipeline.) Granted, my character isn't Lawful Good, but I'd have to give up 7-8 caster levels even if I wanted to ignore lore and get the natural synergy between Sorcerer and Paladin.

The same goes for nearly all other classes. The only viable classes to mix a Sorcerer Bladesinger with are the few PrCs that give full arcane spell progression, because you may as well not be a Bladesinger once your caster level gets too low and your wards are easily dispelled and your attack spells are easily resisted.

It doesn't help that the dodge bonus from Bladesinging is insignificant due to the ridulous high INT requirements. If I were to get a 100% RCR today, I'd most likely not take Bladesinger again as the only way to be effective is to max out STR as much as possible and turn Aska into an Amazon like warrior, which she isn't.

To be fair, I'm playing a Wizard/Swashbuckler/Duelist/Deathsinger. Much better synergy with its PRCs than any sorc-based Bladesinger build.

Ye, if bladesingers are given +10AC like the duelist, that would be perfect. Then you wont have to multiclass with duelist.

Eeeeh, I'm also taking Duelist for Precise Strike... and Elaborate Parry, even in its nerfed state, is neat to have. Unnerfing Bladesong Style (PnP does give it full AC progression instead of just half) would probably defeat the point of Elaborate Parry since I'd get roughly the same AC, but I'm on the fence as to whether I'd sacrifice the extra potency of Precise Strike for the extra spell progression of something like Eldritch Knight. (Then again... that'd give me a round 20 progression levels, and the extra spell and feat slots could be useful in other ways. Hmm. Does make me wish I weren't speaking hypothetically... )

Didn't Duelist just have that +10 AC bonus nerfed?

Canny Defense is +10 too. Always has been.

[Tantive]

It has been a good amount of years since Bladesinger was implemented, were there any fears realised, or had the class(mechanically) just ultimately been seen as Meh?

[Tantive]

Post content....

[*]2 can't be done without Dae magic, because casting checks are hardcoded. Likewise, we do not have Improved Combat Casting.[/list]

Post content....

What kind of hacking can be done to remove the casting interruption? Could it be a second check? Like that it checks if the value was below a roll of 10, but it brings out another value instead of interruption?

[mrm3ntalist]

Eeeeh, I'm also taking Duelist for Precise Strike... and Elaborate Parry, even in its nerfed state, is neat to have. Unnerfing Bladesong Style (PnP does give it full AC progression instead of just half) would probably defeat the point of Elaborate Parry since I'd get roughly the same AC, but I'm on the fence as to whether I'd sacrifice the extra potency of Precise Strike for the extra spell progression of something like Eldritch Knight. (Then again... that'd give me a round 20 progression levels, and the extra spell and feat slots could be useful in other ways. Hmm. Does make me wish I weren't speaking hypothetically... )

Ye, they should give the Bladesinger PRC 9/10 spell progression as well, otherwise it might still worth it to go for EK instead. So +10AC and 9/10spell progression. They might need a damage boost after that, i am not 100% certain though

[DaloLorn]

Eeeeh, I'm also taking Duelist for Precise Strike... and Elaborate Parry, even in its nerfed state, is neat to have. Unnerfing Bladesong Style (PnP does give it full AC progression instead of just half) would probably defeat the point of Elaborate Parry since I'd get roughly the same AC, but I'm on the fence as to whether I'd sacrifice the extra potency of Precise Strike for the extra spell progression of something like Eldritch Knight. (Then again... that'd give me a round 20 progression levels, and the extra spell and feat slots could be useful in other ways. Hmm. Does make me wish I weren't speaking hypothetically... )

Ye, they should give the Bladesinger PRC 9/10 spell progression as well, otherwise it might still worth it to go for EK instead. So +10AC and 9/10spell progression. They might need a damage boost after that, i am not 100% certain though

You're laying the buffs on thick enough that I can't actually tell if you're being serious anymore...

IMO, the class could be interesting if its more unique features actually had a point, as opposed to being mostly-useless gimmicks. Of all the OP's proposals, I think 1B resonates with me the most, making it closer to the Magus it unsuccessfully (accidentally?) emulates. It's not the same, but it's probably the best one could expect in a realtime setting.

Simply piling on raw mechanical enhancements may make the class more worthwhile, but at the cost of making it too good, as we saw with Duelist.

[Flights of Fantasy]

I like seeing the discussion that's come up over this. It's not about making the class overpowered, just a viable option.

[Flights of Fantasy]

I see there hasn't been any discussion since my last post and a quick search doesn't show any mention of planned changes. I'd like to give this topic a bit of a bump and bring in some other ideas to make the class more viable while also synergizing better with Sorcerers.

1. Bladesong Style supports Wizardy or Sorcery - When wielding a longsword or rapier and having nothing in the off-hand, a bladesinger gains a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to half her class level, up to a maximum of half her Intelligence or Charisma bonus, whichever is higher. If the bladesinger wears medium or heavy armor, she loses all benefits of the bladesong style. This bonus will not stack with the AC bonus granted by Invisible Blade or Duelist. (Maximum AC Bonus of +5 that can be achieved with 20 in either intelligence or Charisma rather than 30.)

2. Bladesinger Weapon Focus - When wielding a longsword or rapier and having nothing in the off-hand, a bladesinger gains an additional bonus on all attack rolls she makes equal to her Intelligence or Charisma bonus, whichever is highest. This stacks with all other bonuses to attack roll (including weapon focus). This does not count towards the +20 AB cap. Granted at Bladesinger 10.

3. Improved Song of Celerity - When casting spells with Song of Celerity, the spell receives a bonus to spell DC equal to the bladesinger's Strength bonus. If she has Weapon Finesse, the bonus is equal to her Dexterity bonus if it is greater. This bonus DC only applies to spells cast via Song of Celerity. The bladesinger's dance is a ritual and the humming of her blade's song empowers her spells. Granted at Bladesinger 10.

4. Extra Bonus Feat Options - Add any metamagic feat as well as Practiced Spell Caster to the list of available options.