Invisible Blade

[Flatted Fifth]

I have epic level characters where one is a Duelist and the other is an Invisible Blade.

Duelist: Highest possible AC for a dex build in the game (though not as tankly as a Man At Arms), only requires 2 feats and 5 skill points, and you get one of those feats, mobility, free with the obvious non-prc companion class: Swashbuckler.

Invisible Blade: Almost as good AC, IF you have shield feat (not common in dex builds, and neither swash nor rogue gets it, not to mention carry capacity probs of dex builds), but requires FOUR feats (two weapon fighting, weapon focus dagger/kukri, combat expertise, feint) and 8 skill points. Sure the bleeding wound is nice, but is it worth four feats?

Suggestion: Sweeten the deal on Invisible Blade. Give it Hide in Plain Sight at level 5. After all, the requirements of this class are way higher than shadowdancer which gets HiPS at lvl 1.

[Flatted Fifth]

Or at least Hide in Plain Sight, Indoors if we can then choose regular HiPs as an epic feat for having it. Or Shield feat so we can properly take advantage of the AC. Or Evasion. Something to make it more worth the 4 feats it requires. I wouldn't suggest lowering the req, though, because it makes sense for weap focus and TWF and feint to be required.

[Steve]

Bleeding Wound now bypasses DR. So very worth it.

[Blackman D]

not to mention that hips on IB would not make any sense, IB is a synergy class that basically has to be taken with something that has sneak attack so the bleeds actually work and most classes now have some version of hips already

[Flatted Fifth]

not to mention that hips on IB would not make any sense, IB is a synergy class that basically has to be taken with something that has sneak attack so the bleeds actually work and most classes now have some version of hips already

Then shield feat cause the ac is not fully utilized without it but most classes that would take IB don't get shields

[Flatted Fifth]

Bleeding Wound now bypasses DR. So very worth it.

It's not much damage, though. Not four feats worth of damage when we only get 7 before epic

[Steve]

Bleeding Wound now bypasses DR. So very worth it.

It's not much damage, though. Not four feats worth of damage when we only get 7 before epic

You do realize the dmg stacks per landed SA? Over 3 rounds?

[renshouj]

Bleeding Wound now bypasses DR. So very worth it.

It's not much damage, though. Not four feats worth of damage when we only get 7 before epic

I mean, it's not like those four feats are bad. They're pretty much things you already take. Weapon Focus, TWF, CE. It's not anything too out there or useless. I think after the bleed change (it going through DR), IB is in a pretty okay spot. It's not like its too weak - it's only a 5 level prc after all

[Dragonslayer]

And, uh, Int goes to AC. Having a shield as an IB kind of defeats the purpose of being a cool dual wielding knife fighter, something that's inherent in the feats and class.

I'm not sure what's being suggested. Give a 5 level PrC shield proficiency?

[Flatted Fifth]

And, uh, Int goes to AC. Having a shield as an IB kind of defeats the purpose of being a cool dual wielding knife fighter, something that's inherent in the feats and class.

I'm not sure what's being suggested. Give a 5 level PrC shield proficiency?

Yes, and it in no way defeats the purpose. The ability to choose two weapons or shield according to whether the current situation you're in calls for offense or defense is one of the things hotbar slots are for.

[Dragonslayer]

Generally? Yeah, you're absolutely right if you're talking about a PC as a whole. But the class itself is based around a certain style of fighting. So while a PC who has it can certainly switch around between shields and not, it's not inherent in the IB archetype to use shields as far as I'm aware.

So if a fighter/rogue/IB/SD or whatever wants to do that I guess they can. But the fact that you pick IB doesn't mean you should get a shield proficiency, because it's not part of the idea behind an invisible blade.

I mean, the whole idea is to fight armorless. It's why you get that INT bonus to AC. So even though it'd maybe be mechanically optimal, it's like giving HIPS to every DEX based PrC. Optimal? Sure. Making sense with the archetype or lore of the class? Not really.

[Flatted Fifth]

Just saying as someone who has a lvl 28 duelist and used an rcr to make a lvl 30 in, that when comparing the two Int AC PrCs, duelist is way superior for way lower requirements, which means either duelist is op still or ib needs work. If you want to tell Rhifox they've still gone too far with duelist, go ahead. I don't think they listen to me.

[Tanlaus]

IB has perfect synergy with create diversion. Which is only not as effective as full HiPS against true seeing. Since you need to max bluff anyway it’s great…

And if that’s an issue instead of rouge base you could always go phantom base. Save those ghost steps for when things get hairy since create diversion will work 99% of the time anyway.

Plus the IB int AC stacks with phantom wis AC and the other phantom AC bonuses. Even if you did base 12 wisdom a ring of nature’s vigil would give you +2 AC… 25 phantom would be another 5, so 7 from phantom, 8 with owls wisdom… not to mention owls insight elixirs but that’s just broken.

Go with 18 int. Assassin’s ring is +2 so without fox’s cunning that’s +5 from IB…

Probably grab combat insight in epic levels for the int bonus to damage as well…

Maybe grab 5 swash levels to double that You’d lose 1 bonus AC from phantom but get a bonus dodge AC from swash so it’s pretty much a wash. Plus swash gives free weapon finesse so that saves you a feat…

20 phantom/5 swash/5 IB still gives you 10d6 sneak attack, + IB bleed, + EW, + double bonus to int damage with CI (+10 with 18 base int and assassin's ring +12 with a +4 int item or spell) which doubles pretty often if you’re using kukri. And between 12 and 16 AC depending on your buffs.

You also get true seeing and if you want to burn some of those ki powers on Ki dodge you can stand you’re ground and feint all day to wrack up damage while being super hard to hit.

Feels pretty strong on paper.

[Flatted Fifth]

IB has perfect synergy with create diversion. Which is only not as effective as full HiPS against true seeing. Since you need to max bluff anyway it’s great…

And if that’s an issue instead of rouge base you could always go phantom base. Save those ghost steps for when things get hairy since create diversion will work 99% of the time anyway.

Plus the IB int AC stacks with phantom wis AC and the other phantom AC bonuses. Even if you did base 12 wisdom a ring of nature’s vigil would give you +2 AC… 25 phantom would be another 5, so 7 from phantom, 8 with owls wisdom… not to mention owls insight elixirs but that’s just broken.

Go with 18 int. Assassin’s ring is +2 so without fox’s cunning that’s +5 from IB…

Probably grab combat insight in epic levels for the int bonus to damage as well…

Maybe grab 5 swash levels to double that You’d lose 1 bonus AC from phantom but get a bonus dodge AC from swash so it’s pretty much a wash. Plus swash gives free weapon finesse so that saves you a feat…

20 phantom/5 swash/5 IB still gives you 10d6 sneak attack, + IB bleed, + EW, + double bonus to int damage with CI (+10 with 18 base int and assassin's ring +12 with a +4 int item or spell) which doubles pretty often if you’re using kukri. And between 12 and 16 AC depending on your buffs.

You also get true seeing and if you want to burn some of those ki powers on Ki dodge you can stand you’re ground and feint all day to wrack up damage while being super hard to hit.

Feels pretty strong on paper.

It does feel strong on paper, but in practice, it isn't. With my lvl 30 with maxed bluff, skill focus bluff, and racial bonus to bluff IB is pretty weak. The extra 6 dmg isn't that noticeable. Both my test builds have double int bonus via swash and combat insight and the duelist one is far superior in AC and just more reliable. Feint doesn't work at all against any epic boss I've tried it on. Not once. It works on gnolls in Reaching, but no lvl 30 needs help there.

Btw, the synergy with Create Diversion isn't a bonus because Create Diversion doesn't work well AT ALL against high enemies. In fact it almost never works. The bluff roll goes fine there, it's the -10 penalty to the hide roll that Create Diversion imposes that gets in the way even with literally every equipment slot, including both weapons, being the best hide/ms gear I can get AND having Skill Focus Hide and Skill Focus MS.

No, IB looks good on paper but in the end it's a PrC that costs 4 feats and is deeply inferior to others that cost 2. It's just not worth it. To maximize its effectiveness you need shield feat which most people who would take it won't have**, the class is centered around a mechanic that worked well in the OC but here is rubbish at high levels due to the high spot on high level monsters. If it at least gave you Indoor Hips then it'd be more worth it, assuming indoor hips lets you burn an epic feat for regular hips.

** The main difference between Int AC in Duelist and Int AC in IB is that the IB one works with shields. You might think that makes IB have superior AC but you'd be wrong because Elaborate Parry is a thing and it stacks with a Shield spell while still giving you your same # attacks per round; meanwhile a physical enchanted shield +4 does not stack with shield spell and obviously cuts your offense down. So why doesn't IB give you shield feat to leverage that difference? Or evasion for EW, or at least a path to HiPs? A FOUR feat req PrC shouldn't need so very much from other sources to flesh it out. Hell, it's a rogue-ish PrC in that its main feature is tied to sneak attack but doesn't even give evasion or UMD or disable device or open lock. IB is pretty incomplete for a PrC with such high reqs.

[Tanlaus]

I made a phantom build that uses create diversion and he never fails at 30. Maybe like on dragons or the pit fiend or something with a crazy high spot that my hipster has trouble with.

Where are you going that CD isn’t reliable? I’ll hit the area and check it out.