Clarification/Codification: Bards are made from Bloodlines (+/- Draconic Heritage)

[Steve]

Hello,

Based on a discussion on Discord, where Staff are saying it is understood on BGTSCC that Bards and Bardic Powers come from Bloodlines and/or Draconic Heritage—yet not requiring the actual Feat—and, that any Biography posted for a Bard MUST include a Bloodline connection (or it will not be approved by current DMs).

While the Biographies page on this Forum states:

Ancestor:
(This is for sorcerers, bards, planetouched and characters with heritage [fey, fiend, dragon, etc] background feats. Specify name and type of ancestor. Whether the character knows of it or not. Anything else of note about the ancestor specifically or the relation between the ancestor and the character.)

With the written "...with heritage background feats," what if one's Bard does not have a heritage background Feat? And, this statement does not explicitly state "A Bard MUST have a bloodline/Ancestor of X denomination to be the source of the Bard's powers." Does this mean that no plain-jane Human can learn to be a Bard through study at a Bardic College and learn through practice to manipulate the Weave via sound...without first having their abilities sourced from bloodlines??

I'm asking that it be explicitly clarified, that Bards—and perhaps as well Sorcerers—MUST declare the source of their powers, and, that that source is "typically" Draconic Heritage in nature, as was suggested by Staff and players in the before mentioned Discord discussion.

Thank you.

[DM Winter]

Sorcerers also don't get heritage feats, planetouched also don't get heritage feats. The full sentence is "and characters with heritage..." It is very clear that "characters with heritage feats" are one of the four types (along with 1-bards, 2-sorcerers and 3-planetouched) that must outline their ancestor and thus their bloodline - also yes the most common bloodline for sorcerers/bards is draconic, but it is not the only one in the server.

[Steve]

Sorcerers also don't get heritage feats, planetouched also don't get heritage feats. The full sentence is "and characters with heritage..." It is very clear that "characters with heritage feats" are one of the four types (along with 1-bards, 2-sorcerers and 3-planetouched) that must outline their ancestor and thus their bloodline - also yes the most common bloodline for sorcerers/bards is draconic, but it is not the only one in the server.

Yes, with the clarification to read it that way, it makes sense. What still doesn't make sense is that this was made official, that bards are Bards from a bloodline. Please show where it has, in the PHB or otherwise, explicitly, that Bards and their powers are ONLY possible because of an inherited bloodline. Because as I know—correct me if I'm wrong—Bloodlines is a Feat to be taken...and on BGTSCC, there are no mechanics to support taking a Bloodline feat (except for Heritage Feats, which...are not bloodlines). Or is that actually the intent here, to merge Heritage Feats with Bloodline Feats (again, which do not exist)?

[DM Winter]

Having a heritage is inherent of planetouched, no matter what class they took, and of sorcerers and bards. Characters that are none of those can also choose to have a bloodline through one of the feats. It's not one or the other, it's both.
Also the "where explicitly is this said on the PHB" is a discussion you already had on discord and I'd rather not repeat it here! I'm just telling you, as you asked, what the BGTSCC server expects, and that is that indeed bards have bloodlines.

It'd be great to have a bloodline rework so that classes that automatically have one could pick it (like how rhifox did with warlock pacts), and hopefully we shall see that sooner rather than later. Also heritage feats are bloodline feats? As in, heritage feats represent your bloodline if you don't have a class/race that already has one.

[Steve]

Having a heritage is inherent ... of sorcerers and bards.

Please, show me where it says this in Core books, for Bards.

Also the "where explicitly is this said on the PHB" is a discussion you already had on discord and I'd rather not repeat it here! I'm just telling you, as you asked, what the BGTSCC server expects, and that is that indeed bards have bloodlines.

Except that your answer on Discord holds no weight, and saying that "is is what BGTSCC server expects"...is that essentially just your opinion? Or, as now Head DM, you're willing—and able—to codify that here. Also...I just noticed someone changed the post title to read "Obsolete for now" but not like this was mentioned to the community?

[DM Winter]

When the rules were updated, a lot of what was on that thread ended up in the actual rules. Also that thread is quite disorganized and in general having 3+ different topics for "rules" is quite... annoying. That's why it says obsolete, as it contains things that just aren't really the "rule" anymore, and some rules were adapted into the actual rule page.

Also the heritage stuff is most certainly not my decision alone. When the bio rewards returned, that was a discussion of the whole DM team. If you want screenshots and discussion of the books, it is in the discord as you certainly remember, even though you were not satisfied with what was presented to you!

[Tekill]

I always understood it that a Bard's magic came from the music itself, not some sort of heritage....that what a sorcerer is. They learn the magic from being part of bardic colleges under tutelage of other bards. They learn the music but it still had to come from the heart. But that does not mean that heart has to be a dragon heart. Your heritage should never matter - that is the beauty of music!

Its always been about the music, man!

[Steve]

If you want screenshots and discussion of the books, it is in the discord as you certainly remember, even though you were not satisfied with what was presented to you!

Yes, but there were no examples that explicitly stated Bards and their bardic music/magic is because they have heritage/bloodline feats inherent/innate or not.

They CAN have it, but it is not a fundamental.

That's the problem here: no one can actually prove that point being made, that Bards are made, not learned.

[DaloLorn]

By the reasoning in your last post, Steve, would it be fair to assert that tieflings only have fiendish heritage if they take the Fiendish Heritage feat at level 1? The same argument applies - they can have it, but it's not inherent to all tiefling statblocks.

Don't confuse the absence of heritage feats for the absence of heritage, especially when half of the possible origins of bardic/sorcerous power don't even have a corresponding heritage feat in BG to begin with.

[Steve]

By the reasoning in your last post, Steve, would it be fair to assert that tieflings only have fiendish heritage if they take the Fiendish Heritage feat at level 1? The same argument applies - they can have it, but it's not inherent to all tiefling statblocks.

Don't confuse the absence of heritage feats for the absence of heritage, especially when half of the possible origins of bardic/sorcerous power don't even have a corresponding heritage feat in BG to begin with.

I appreciate your attention to the debate here Dalo, but I’m not confused. And, you post a red herring here.

And now why:

1. Tiefling is a Race. Bard is a Class. Apples and oranges.
2. A Tiefling at Creation receives modifiers to the Character Sheet explicitly from an ancestral source, and this cannot be denied by the Player, this inherited modifier, horns or no horns. A Bard at Creation does not receive Sheet modifiers at Creation in the same way, nor the same sort. Except, however, when at Creation said Bard ALSO has a Heritage feat. Now, I realize that Bloodlines are a thing one can “take” at any time on a Character—if I’ve done my research well…—but then that too is a CHOICE, not a fundamental that can’t be denied.
3. Again, a Bard CAN have a Heritage, but it is not a requirement. As well, a Bard character CAN have a Bloodline, but it is NOT REQUIRED in D&D 3.5 to start at Bard Level 1, nor to reach Bard Level 30. Show me explicitly where it states that in a Core Book, and I’ll STFU. Cheers.

[Deragnost]

I always understood it that a Bard's magic came from the music itself, not some sort of heritage

Quite! I'm quoting now.

A bard's magic comes from the heart. If his heart is good, a bard brings hope and courage to the downtrodden and uses his tricks, music, and magic to thwart the schemes of evildoers. If the nobles of the land are corrupt, the good bard is an enemy of the state, cunningly evading capture and raising the spirits of the oppressed. But music can spring from an evil heart as well. Evil bards forego blatant violence in favor of manipulation, holding sway over the hearts and minds of others and taking what enraptured audiences "willingly" give.

[...]

A bard brings forth magic from his soul, not from a book. He can cast only a small number of spells, but he can do so without selecting or preparing them in advance. His magic emphasizes charms and illusions over the more dramatic evocation spells that wizards and sorcerers often use.

[...]

An apprentice bard learns his skills from a single experienced bard, whom he follows and serves until he is ready to strike out on his own. Many bards were once young runaways or orphans, befriended by wandering bards who became their mentors. Since bards occasionally congregate in informal "colleges," the apprentice bard may meet many of the more prominent bards in the area. Still, the bard has no strong allegiance to bards as a whole. In fact, some bards are highly competitive with other bards, jealous of their reputations and defensive

I took this from here: https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/classes/baseCore/bard.html

Though there are some bards who actually inherit draconic blood and, because of the heritage, they become bards. Still, it's not the only way to be one. Besides, draconic blood can be earned as well, as far as I remember.