Healers and Epic Areas

[Moonsong]

I have started to play a Healer and support cleric build. My first attempt after the RCR was very disappointing. She can heal like no one else, i'm actually happy on that part. But i have some issues in epic areas, even if i'm in a party. It's pretty frustrating if you have to watch your party die and all you can do is Rez them. I would rather want to prevent people dying.

For example in the Cloakwood Fortress, i know it's an epic area and meant to be hard, but still :

1) There is those Revived sorcerers, that get a party to die faster than i can cast a healing spell. They are too fast for the casting time of my spells.
2) I have Selune's Radiance, which is supposed to give Turn Undead progression and still the Undead are not effected at all by my Turn attempts.
3) Everything keeps targetting me, allthough i stay in the background as a support person. Which doesn't help either, i can't heal others if i have to heal myself all the time. Mass healings are too limited despite high WIS.

I could really use some advice here:

a) Does anyone know what those Revived Sorcerers cast to kill so quickly? What can a healer do about it?

b) Most and foremost: In general, what can i do to help a party survive there and survive myself?

[Steve]

You might try having your PC cast Sanctuary just before the battle begins, so that until your PC acts, it should be ignored (putting that high WIS / DCs to use). Invisibility potions might also work unless the mob has See or Seeing up.

I’m guessing these Sorcerer mobs have Quickened Spells.

A cleric should be able to get good AC when armored, with a shield, and buffed. Cast Spell Resistance too.

In this game, if your healer gets near the fight, it also has to be good at combat.

[Moonsong]

Sanctuary. i always considerd it as kinda senseless, because it drops as soon as you attack anyway.^^ Does that also count, if you heal or buff someone or have a summon attack?

Yeah, that is pretty OP. You only have to roll a natural 1 and they instant kill you.

I always do have Superiour Resistence on. But i'm trying something very different here, an elven cleric not wearing heavy armor. A healer that stays in the background and well, actually heals and casts support spells. Dex is not that bad either. So she can a) use a Bow or b ) if anything gets too close, use a shield and Combat experiese.

The think i still wonder anbout aremany Undea, suich as the ancient mummies, why they don't really care about Turn undead. How do i see what my DC at Turn Undead is?

[Steve]

If your healer also doesn’t have super high CHA, then forget about reliable Turn Undead. Mobs are tuned for total power building.

Sanctuary does disappear with ant action, which is a pity. It really shouldn’t disappear when healing, considering HiPS doesn’t break using heal kits.

Being a cleric and not wearing armor just isn’t going to work, unless you stay waaaaaaaayyyyyy back. AC is king on BGTSCC, and unless you have high Concealment like an Arcane build does through spells, your PC is just going to suffer. Not my fault!!

[Kevin_Smith]

I play a healer in the epics too. The last I remember, you can freely heal, both with spells and kits, and use buffs from etherealness. Sanctuary is a level one spell, that has way too tiny DC even for DC based healers, I wouldn't rely on it. Indeed, I've noticed that monsters often time target you of all the party due to some AI settings. Then again, invest into AC or use things from etherealness. Wear a shield and have both Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively activated.

Regarding the Cloak woods Fortress... I wouldn't put it on the same level with many other epic areas. That fortress is extremely challenging, and its monsters have some notorious mechanics, such as incredibly high spell resistance. As a general advice, though, Spell Resistance spell is the best way to protect yourself from casters. It boosts your spell resistance to 42 on level 30, which makes even level 30 monsters fail half of their SR based spell casts against you, or your party members if you use it on them. Additionally, there are spell mantles in your spell book. Those block spells with 100% probabily, but only last for a certain number of spells blocked and are only of 6 seconds / level duration.

In order to protect your party, there is a very useful spell called Recitation, that boosts everyone's AC, AB and saves by 2 points and yours by 3. Playing a cleric, you have certain domains that provide unique spells, but I don't know what those domains are in your scenario, so I can not recommend more. If you play a DC based cleric with high Wisdom, there are many useful control spells, such as Word of Faith that blinds foes for a long duration, or Lion's Roar that stuns and damages them, and has a huge radius. Against undead, Mass Heal can be used to deal tremendous damage.

p.s. I forgot to mention, Turn Undead is likely not going to be of much use, unless you build specifically around it, with proper classes that progress it, with proper domains and heavy Charisma investment. However, its charges are used for other powerful feats, such as Divine Shield and Divine Might / Epic Divine Might.

[Hullack]

Also I think the sorcerers basically spam phantasmal killer, which is can be an instant death.

[Kitunenotsume]

The last I remember, you can freely heal, both with spells and kits, and use buffs from etherealness. Sanctuary is a level one spell, that has way too tiny DC even for DC based healers, I wouldn't rely on it. Indeed, I've noticed that monsters often time target you of all the party due to some AI settings. Then again, invest into AC or use things from etherealness.

Do mind that affecting non-ethereal targets from Etherealness is mechanically functional, but can be an issue narratively.
Per the rules of being Ethereal, you cannot interact with solid objects including living creatures; so casting spells on physical allies during RP from Etherial would be frowned upon (as you are on another, coterminous plane). But in-dungeon, the mechanics entirely permit you to do so.

2) I have Selune's Radiance, which is supposed to give Turn Undead progression and still the Undead are not effected at all by my Turn attempts.
[. . .]
b) Most and foremost: In general, what can i do to help a party survive there and survive myself?

If you have access to full Turning progression, you would be able to capitalize on Sacred Purification - though I note that the feat has a prerequisite, and thus you are spending 2 feats for the ability to convert Turning attempts into pseudo-Mass Cure spells. It affects *all* targets in range so you heal living enemies if not careful, but does activate at feat-speed, which is a few seconds earlier than a spell, and cannot be countered or disrupted.

[Rinzler]

Unfortunately, healers (clerics) don't have the same type of mechanical impact here as they do in most iterations of D&D. Either spawns die too fast, or as you've described, the player dies before you can do anything. The damage-to-hit point ratio is not the best here and there's generally not enough time for you to identify an injured teammate for you to heal before they either kill the spawn or the spawn kills them. When you add in regeneration, heal kits, heal potions, and vampiric regeneration there really isn't a lot for a cleric to do (as a support role) in combat on bgtscc. The main value you can provide to your party are wards before combat (death ward as an example).

[Steve]

Unfortunately, healers (clerics) don't have the same type of mechanical impact here as they do in most iterations of D&D. Either spawns die too fast, or as you've described, the player dies before you can do anything. The damage-to-hit point ratio is not the best here and there's generally not enough time for you to identify an injured teammate for you to heal before they either kill the spawn or the spawn kills them. When you add in regeneration, heal kits, heal potions, and vampiric regeneration there really isn't a lot for a cleric to do (as a support role) in combat on bgtscc. The main value you can provide to your party are wards before combat (death ward as an example).

Perhaps if mobs had less damage but more sickening effects, poisons, drains etc on hit, which would give a healer a big role after the fight had ended.

One thing about gameplay on BGTSCC is that groups nearly never flee. It’s not even that players don’t think to do it, but that dungeons are designed with little ability to “escape,” and or create barriers/protection in order to have real creative combat encounter.

But truthfully, as Rinzler states, the universal and infinite use of Heal Potions, as specific example, makes a healer useless.

[izzul]

Or a healer himself does not need to use heal potions at all when they have enough heals/regen/Hymm for themselves and for others.

[Ghost]

May well be better to load up on regenerations (regeneration spell and vigor line) and convert mass cures. Touch range instant heals aren't all that useful.

No idea what your level split is here, but if it's like cleric 15/hierophant10/harper priest5 (you said selûne's radiance), your turn undead should be fine. If you have anything else that reduces your turn progress, that will make it less useful.

Playing a support cleric can also be about preventing damage from happening in the first place. You have access to some nice control spells (Hammer of the Gods is surprisingly useful, for example).

I played an armourless cleric once (Oryoon), but he had monk levels to use all that wisdom to make up for the lack of armour. Without that, you are unfortunately going to be quite squishy. It helps if you have spell domain and can cast Anyspell for mirror images, though. But either way, you may want to consider getting an armour (and a shield!).

[DaloLorn]

Doubling down on Ghost's suggestion: Extended Regenerate from a CL30 cleric lasts 60 rounds and heals 10 HP per round, for a maximum of 600 HP from a level 8 slot. The target would need to spend more than half of the spell's uptime at full HP in order to receive less healing than a single Mass Heal (level 9 spell for 250 HP per target); closer to three quarters of the uptime in order to receive less healing than a Heal (level 6 spell for 150 HP, level 5 if you've got Healing domain).

Extended Vigorous Cycle is a level 7 spell lasting 80 rounds at CL30 (but unlike Regenerate, it doesn't scale past CL30) and healing 3 HP per target per round, for a maximum of 240 HP per target. Assuming the targets are all wounded for the whole duration of the spell, they receive marginally less healing than a Mass Heal. Meanwhile, Extended Mass Lesser Vigor is 50 rounds as a level 4 spell, healing up to 50 HP per target. (Alternatively, you can use Extended Vigor to heal a single target for 100 HP off the same spell slot.)

If Hullack's diagnosis is correct, any fear/mind immunity buff will prevent your teammates from dying, as Phantasmal Killer is a fear and mind-affecting spell. If you've got any ranks in Spellcraft, you'll be able to identify the spells yourself and research which wards are needed to block them out.

[Ghost]

The vigor spells also stack if I recall correctly. So you can get a bunch of regen.

[Kitunenotsume]

One thing about gameplay on BGTSCC is that groups nearly never flee. It’s not even that players don’t think to do it, but that dungeons are designed with little ability to “escape,” and or create barriers/protection in order to have real creative combat encounter.

I've had success a time or two using Wall of Stone to seal off passages and give time for extra combat healing before. Cast at a chokepoint like a door or narrow passage, it can isolate enemies from the party or force alternate pathing options that give a bit of space. I don't know if it has the proper Hardness (physical DR) that Stone should have, but it can be a clever option for a 5th level slot (which, admitedly, competes with Heal in this case).

I am also an advocate of having a Quickened Silence ready for any content, as the ability to "Just Say No to Spellcasting" is useful almost anywhere.
A harmful spell that isn't cast is damage prevented! Sure it takes an 6th level slot, but you can cancel even epic-spells in 2 seconds by targeting the ground.

[Moonsong]

Ok, i will think about it and urge my future groups, not to see me as a big tank. If my character concept has to tank i. A party, something is wrong. ^^
The level split is a bit different, but I can better talk about that in private. Heal domain is not a choice for my deity. I have Magic and Good instead. Lore friendly build here.

But the advice was good, thanks everyone.