Idea for Hips/Diversion

[predrag]

This will likely bring out disapproval from the large amount of folks who use it but might as well throw it out there .
Could and would it be doable to make stealth after diversion/hips last two rounds ?

It feels unreal to be able to hide that well after monsters or folks know you are out there .
For one It's perfectly fine to be able to stealth around with near impunity when you aren't expected , but if revealed than hide again it should be only a matter of time before found .

More so hips/diversion feel like a near perfect safety button , adding some more risk to it , making that part of stealth a short combat play wouldn't hurt sneakers dps , only the overpowered survivability that it gives . Making it more a tactical choice when to engage and when to wait out in stealth , rather than know you can just escape to stealth at a push of a button .

More fun overall in my book , and there are still those etherealness per day items if one needs the safe escape .

Throw your opinions at me !

[selhan]

Hide in Plain Sight is a "Supernatural Ability."

Normal Stealth falls in the line of what your talking about because, a character without Hips, has to first break the "Line of Sight" from targets in order to hide.

So in my opinion given that Hips is a Supernatural Ability, it doesnt need to be messed with. If we gonna look at things in a more technical aspect, then go across the board with other Supernatural abilities like Shapeshift. I've watch the American Werewolf in London , they surely didn't turn into Werewolves instantly lol. How much time for bones to be realigned, claws to grow, snout and maw to reshape and form etc.

That 6 Sec cool down in between Hips is make or break already.

[DaloLorn]

It's moot anyway: Very few of the ideas in the OP are within our ability to implement.

[predrag]

Hide in Plain Sight is a "Supernatural Ability."

Normal Stealth falls in the line of what your talking about because, a character without Hips, has to first break the "Line of Sight" from targets in order to hide.

So in my opinion given that Hips is a Supernatural Ability, it doesnt need to be messed with. If we gonna look at things in a more technical aspect, then go across the board with other Supernatural abilities like Shapeshift. I've watch the American Werewolf in London , they surely didn't turn into Werewolves instantly lol. How much time for bones to be realigned, claws to grow, snout and maw to reshape and form etc.

That 6 Sec cool down in between Hips is make or break already.

Meh shapeshift getting more time to cast makes sense , was something that ocured to me too , but not really the topic here .
And unless hips/create diversion does an instant brain wipe of the sneak's existence from all those around , he should be found , unless he escapes quickly and far enough , by all logic .
Those two rounds I suggested would be enough to ambush something , than hide again after the 1 round cooldown . But sitting safe in front of monsters and players , for days if he wants , after they just saw him moments ago . Feels too much .

[predrag]

It's moot anyway: Very few of the ideas in the OP are within our ability to implement.

I tried to simplify the idea to the minimum possible to implement , but if it's still beyond it , it's np .
Like some form of effect after 12 seconds that breaks stealth if hips/diversion are used and not regular stealth .

[selhan]

I personally dont like Creative Diversion. I liked the old HIde in the Shadows better because you had to be near a shadow in order to use it. In the core rule book with Hips they can jump into any nearby shadows except their own . But again Hips is a Supernatural Ability so to me it sorta gives it the excuse by that. But realistically the old Hide in the Shadows was perfect to me. I play a Hipster and I could settle with that Mechanic , it even appears cooler and makes sense.

But Im not going to say I favor for any change, The sneak community if bigger than just me lol

[colorless entity]

It's a discussion as old as NWN itself. But in my opinion, there are good reasons for the mechanic to work the way it does. The ability is called "Hide in Plain Sight" and, unlike normal Hide, is a Supernatural Ability, as has already been mentioned.

Let's remember again what a Supernatural Ability is: "Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic."
So it's a magical, supernatural ability that is more than just hiding behind a tree, a box, etc. In this respect, I personally don't use Create Diversion for HIPS either, because that's not my interpretation of this ability. I would use Create Diversion when I use normal Hide to conceal myself somewhere as quickly as possible due to the distraction. We all know how agonizingly imprecise the description of HIPS is, how exactly does this HIPS work? The only thing we can say for sure:
"A shadowdancer (also applies to other classes) can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."
So we can say that for HIPS you use shadows and need shadows to be able to hide while being observed. When we step out of the shadows again, we need 6 seconds to be able to do it again, taking into account that time is required in order to hide in the shadows again.

So much for the facts. Let's move on to your point that it is unrealistic to be able to hide that well after monsters or folks know you are out there. Unrealistic in what sense? Let's say I hide in the shadows or cast invisibility, which is the same logic for this point. You still have the option to make an area attack in the area where the person disappeared, which will cause damage if the person is in this area. But do you really think it's that easy to hit something that's invisible and can move free and quickly, even if you've seen where it disappeared? We're talking about trying to hit something you can't see and something is trying to avoid you that can see you and your moves very well and usually has high reflexes, high tumble, etc. to dodge that. I think it's realistic to assume that the chances for the "blind person" are very bad here.

But that is only the case if we assume that HIPS simply means being "just" invisible. But what exactly does it mean to hide in plain sight in the shadows? We don't have a great deal of guidance here, and I think that's the beauty of this ability. We can interpret and we can think about what it means for our characters. What would it even mean to "hide" in the shadows? Do you become a shadow yourself as long as you use this supernatural ability? Do you merge with the shadows and therefore become invisible to the eye? Is your character perhaps for a brief moment in the Shadow Fringe, which refers to the intersection of the Prime Material Plane and the Plane of Shadow? This interpretation is interesting e.g. Shadow Dancer, as someone who dances between the two planes for example. Either way, I believe that with this varied interpretation, the ability has the right to function as it does and that the exact "how" can provide a nice framework for creative RP.

[JustAnotherGuy]

The idea of HiPS (and the variant "Hide in the Shadows") is a bit ambiguous. Is the character hiding in the shadow, as in slipping into the shadow? Or is the character hiding -in- the shadow, as in they are stepping between the material plane and the shadow plane? For a shadow dancer, I could see it being the latter. The same might be able to to be said of the assassin, but that's a bit of a harder sell, in my opinion. For a ranger, I don't think it's that, though.

Mechanically, there are some exploits, as mentioned on the wiki page here. The issue with HiPS is that there's no real counter outside of AoE. The natural counter of stealth (spot) is of no use in HiPS. In testing, someone with a hide score of only around 30 can HiPS in front of my spotter with 80+ spot and be hidden for a full a round. To me, if my spotter can see that well, even if the person is slipping into the shadow realm, the spotter should be able to see that's what they did. "Oh, they went into that shadow". They might not be able to see the person, but they know where they are, and thus no sneak attack should be able to be had.

With all that being said, I'm not actually advocating for change. While I do think there is something I don't like about it, it's such a small thing that it's not going to bother me much.

[Louvaine]

I think it's important to note that getting into stealth doesn't stop attacks already actioned that turn. This is more noticeable with ranged attacks, but every rogue will tell you how many times they got hit between pressing the button and being fully hidden.

Between this, the ability cooldown and the first detection check, a Rogue is able to hide for about 3 seconds from a Spotter.

Bearing in mind that it's easier to Spot than it it is to Hide (I need to have 40 Spot to see your 59 Hide, and the items on BG favour Spot with stuff like +5 headgear), I would consider buffing the stealth system rather than nerfing it, but ultimately it's fine as is.

[Sir Nathaniel]

I disagree with the spot items yes you many have one with +5 which are the eyes of eagle in the epic stores but you can buy a full set of ninja to help with the stealth. Looking around for spot and listen gear to counter the the hide and move silently is all spread out and not as near as good quality as the ninja sets you can find. Maybe a good counter would be like the glitterdust spell that is designed to lower hide and move silently or do some thing like fairy fire gives you a outline make you more visible against invisibility and hide in plain sight. It was a common tactic that drows used to do against each other.

[Louvaine]

Spot/Listen:

• Eyes of the Eagle +5/+0 (48000gp)
• Greater Amulet of the Stalker +3/3 (14000gp)
• Greater Cloak of the Stalker +4/+4 (85000gp)
• Elven Archer Bracers +3/+3 (125000gp)
• Rogue's Spotter Ring +3/+2 (5800gp)
• Rogue's Spotter Ring +3/+2 (5800gp)
• Robe of Eyes +4/+0 (320000gp)
• Assassin's Infiltrator +3/+3 (6000gp)
• Boots of Initiative +4/+3 (131000gp)
• Watcher's Baton +2/+2 (58000gp)
• Watcher's Baton +2/+2 (58000gp)

36 Spot
24 Listen
856600gp

Hide/MS:

• Ninja Cowl, Epic +4/+4 and Stealthy +2/+2 (265000gp)
• Greater Amulet of the Stalker +3/3 (14000gp)
• Greater Cloak of the Stalker +4/+4 (85000gp)
• Battlefield Scout's Gloves +4/+4 (125000gp)
• Assassin's Finger +2/+2 (15000gp)
• Assassin's Finger +2/+2 (15000gp)
• Ninjas Robe of Stars, Epic +4/+4 (325000gp)
• Acromatic Belt +3/+3 (81000gp)
• Ninja Boots, Epic +4/+4 (455000gp)
• Rogue's Stealth Dagger +3 +3/+3 (34500gp)
• Rogue's Stealth Dagger +3 +3/+3 (34500gp)

36 Hide (+2 from Stealthy)
36 MS (+2 from Stealthy)
1449000gp

As proven above, I stand corrected. Stealth is easier to come by, although at a greater price in gold. It's interesting to see how putting out weapons tips the scales from Detection to Stealth's side of things. It's another argument entirely to include other bonuses like AC and various skills, and yet another argument to include spells so readily available from wands, and yet another how much benefit one can actually get before it's capped by the rules limitation. This was fun, but I think maybe off-topic. Thanks for encouraging my min-maxing obsession.

[Blackman D]

Gear may have gotten easier to get but do understand someone with that stealth gear against someone with that spotter gear will never be able to hide, assuming skills are also equal

if you want to hide and never be found you have to exceed detection skills by 30 points to compensate for engine modifiers, but someone who's detection is within 20 points of your stealth will find you sooner or later

and to the point of the original suggestion, the system already heavily favors detection, no need to try to handicap stealth when the stealth/detection engine is already complex

[renshouj]

Dalo already said it, but a lot of the suggestions are simply outside of the capability of staff/the game

And in any case, if there were to be an extensive overhaul to stealth, it'd likely come along with the death of skill stacking, so the matters of gear are mostly moot

[Lockonnow]

well it is not fun to get hit from some sneak creature there for it is more easy to get spot skills

[JustAnotherGuy]

Gear may have gotten easier to get but do understand someone with that stealth gear against someone with that spotter gear will never be able to hide, assuming skills are also equal

if you want to hide and never be found you have to exceed detection skills by 30 points to compensate for engine modifiers, but someone who's detection is within 20 points of your stealth will find you sooner or later

and to the point of the original suggestion, the system already heavily favors detection, no need to try to handicap stealth when the stealth/detection engine is already complex

This isn't wrong, but it's not 100% correct, either. Hinzel and Emmanuel did some testing. While under normal circumstances, Emmanuel (spot 80+) could see Hinzel after a short time (when he buffed up to 100 hide), once Hinzel hostiled Emmanuel, Emmanuel could no longer spot him. It seems that when not hostiled, the stealthed person does not get a roll to hide, while the spotter does. However, it appears that they do get a roll when they are hostiled.